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#1172268 - 06/14/08 08:55 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: whitesands]
bmwtechguy Offline


Registered: 06/15/04
Posts: 2522
Loc: South Carolina
The new yellow/gold Pure 1 oil filters just don't look right on a bike....

However, the Wix, Mobil 1, Amsoil, and Bosch filters look just fine on apps where the filter is right out there and can be seen.

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#1172437 - 06/14/08 02:16 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: bmwtechguy]
dwendt44 Offline


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3571
Loc: Central Wisconsin
The old Pure 1 filter was a pretty metalic blue that matched my cycle. Now I'll have to go black.
Bummer.
_________________________
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#1172630 - 06/14/08 08:57 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: dwendt44]
Blue_Goose Offline


Registered: 07/13/05
Posts: 1870
Loc: New Hampsha
Get a Supertech from Walmart for cheap $$

I just found that I have an extended warranty with Honda for my F4i until June 2010 courtesy of the previous owner so I will probably stick to the over priced Honda OEM filter and look for them cheaper on Flea Bay.......

Really liking this fill of M1 4T oil...bike feels a lot stronger and smoother..shifting is still loud but everything else seems to be an improvement over the Honda juice




Goose
_________________________
2014 Subaru XV Crosstrek Premium CVT 2.0L
2003 Honda Accord EX-L 2.4L 5MT
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#1172631 - 06/14/08 08:58 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: bmwtechguy]
Blue_Goose Offline


Registered: 07/13/05
Posts: 1870
Loc: New Hampsha
 Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy
The new yellow/gold Pure 1 oil filters just don't look right on a bike....




Agreed




Goose
_________________________
2014 Subaru XV Crosstrek Premium CVT 2.0L
2003 Honda Accord EX-L 2.4L 5MT
2011 Harley Davidson Road King

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#1173580 - 06/16/08 12:09 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: dnewton3]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
 Originally Posted By: dnewton3
There is no such thing as a "motorcycle" oil filter or a "car" oil filter; they just aren't that "specific". To answer the OP's question directly: there is no difference between car and motorcycle fitlers. Oil filters are oil filters, period. There are different brands and grades and types of construction. But there is no designation for M/C vs. a car.

Filters are designed around specific parameters that the engine manufacturer dictates for a desired result in filtration efficiency, flow, pressure differential, construction demands and size requirements.

"Motorcycle" filters often seem "special" because they are viewed as a replacment part to a luxury item. After all, no one NEEDS a motorcycle, but several of us (including me) have one. It's the perception of the market that we're willing to pay more for a high-end product to protect our baby, but the reality is that spec's are spec's, and as long as a filter meets those specs, then it's available for any given application. If there is anything special about a motorcycle oil filter at a motorcycle shop, it's the price, in that they can often successfully charge their customers more money for a filter that you can get a Napa or AAP for a lot less.

Let me give you a very good example. Go to http://www.wixfilters.com and search for their 51348 filter, and look at the "all applications" link. You'll see that it goes on everything from lawn mowers with air-cooled Koehler engines, to small diesel engines, to Harley-Davidson motorcycles, to Chrysler inline four and V-6 gas engines, to Toyota V-6 and V-8 engines up to 4.7L.

Another example is Wix 51365. It fits all kinds of motorcycles, both air and liquid cooled. But it also fits Infiniti car engines, John Deere tractors with both gas and diesel engines, Komatsu excavators with diesel engines, and a large smattering of Mitsubishi, Mazda, Nissan and Subaru applications.

How about your CBR600F4 oil filter? Wix specifically states to use #51358, which fits a huge list of Honda and Kawasaki applications. It's used on Kia cars and Polaris ATV's. It also is used on a large list of Komatsu construction equipment, and many Kubota products, with both gasoline and diesel engines. Your CBR probably has a redline of greater than 10,000 rpm, and yet this same filter is also used on a diesel engine that runs only 2500 rpm. In fact, the specs for this filter are pretty mundane. Typical flow and pressure ranges. In fact, it's BETA ratio is less than stellar; 2/20 at 13/52? Not exactly a super-fine filter by any definition. And yet this little filter is on hundreds of thousands of engines around the world. And all those engines run for the equivilant of millions of miles.

Interestingly, if you cross reference the Purolator L14610 into Wix, you don't get the 51358 that is suggested for your application by Wix. The x-ref for the L14610 is 51356, which fits (again) a huge list of equipment, including marine engines! It just goes to show you that filter makers take the criteria (specs) of an OEM filter, and then apply one or more suggestions for that application. It shows that interpretations are sometimes different. Different is not wrong! It's just not the same. That's an important concept to understand. Further, since engine OEMs don't typically make their own filters, they just find a filter that meets their particular needs in a catalog (such as from Wix, Purolator, Champion, etc), and then spec that into the BOM (bill of materials) for the engine production plans.

Start to get the point? Filters are not typically designed "only" for a motorcycle. Companies such as Wix and Purolator look for applications that they can meet with a broad product line and then recomend one or more of their offerings to meet a particular flow, construction, filtration and size packaging requirement.


I disagree. Just because they will fit your MC doesn't mean they have the correct filtration level and bypass pressure. You can toast a Harley engine with a filter that is too restrictive because they are a dry sump engine design with a low presure high volume oil system. Ask anyone with an EVO motor that has put a 5 micron filter on one only to starve the valvetrain of oil. As for the TC88/96 series those engines use the same type of high volume low pressure oiling (gerotor pump) system but cool the pistons with internal oil jets. Not enough filtration (5 micron multi-pass spec) and you can clogg those jets and develop overheating. The Wix filter that firs the Harley TC engine has a 19 micron rating with paper media. The HD filter has a 5 micron rating with synthetic media. You save $5 with the wix but open yourself to serious potential problems. Also, if your oil filter doesn't go into bypass and allow the proper volume of oil when necessary you are going to generate huge wear on engine internals. Very critical on the EVO carbed engines as the idle rpm is usually lower than the EFI TC88/96 that has the idle set electronically at 950+ to keep pushing oil.


Edited by PT1 (06/16/08 12:13 PM)
_________________________
Oils well that ends well...

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#1174126 - 06/17/08 06:09 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5539
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I thought my post had made it clear, but I'll try to sum it up. It's not just about "fit"; it's about ALL the filter specs.

Your oil filter typically will rarely, if ever, go into bypass. It's been debated here many times, but most agree that it just doesn't happen but in EXTREME circumstances, and even then, it's still rare. The bypass filter is designed to open upon pressure differential across the media; upstream pressure vs. downstream pressure, if you will, as divided by the media within the fitler. This might happen as a blip at start up. It could happen if you get a GIANT sludge filled agglomeration mass covering the whole media (but if this were true, you'd have bigger problems than filter bypass!). The filter itself represents a mere fraction of the lube system resistance, therefore the differential across the media isn't going to force the bypass open. If you're worried about the filter bypassing at ultra-low rpm, you're worried about the wrong thing. Basically, this is a non-issue.

As for flow ratings, it's typical that the flow capability of a filter FAR outpaces the flow of the system in an engine. So flow is also a non-issue.

Nominal micron ratings are better than no info at all, but the Beta ratios are a MUCH better indication of filtration efficiency. Regarding the filtration need for the HD oil cooling jets; do you think HD is the only manufacturer to use such technology? MANY, MANY of today's sport bikes use such cooling. And they do it at a MUCH higher RPM. Heck, even some diesel engines have jet cooling for the pistons. What makes HD so special in this regard? Nothing, that's what. Just because HD has a "premium" 5um filter available for sale, that does not mean that the engine requires such filtration for proper operation. And I seriously call into question any filter that claims to be a 5um FULL FLOW filter.

I can assure you that large companies such as Wix and Purolator spec filters that will meet the OEM criteria for all characteristics. Size, flow, filtration, bypass and burst pressures, etc. Do you honestly believe Wix would suggest filter XXXXX for an HD application, to risk "serious potential problems"? If anything, HD owners tend to be super-anal about their rides, overall. Don't you think Wix is legally aware of their obligation as implied in their warranty?

The OP's question was basically "what makes a motorcycle fitler different from a car filter?". Answer: nothing. Specs are specs. As long as a filter meets those specs, it'll work.


Edited by dnewton3 (06/17/08 06:14 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#1174223 - 06/17/08 09:12 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: dnewton3]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
You might want to take a close look at the oil system design on a Harley Evo or TC engine before you say the system will hardly ever go into bypass. It is a high volume/low pressure system which is very different from sport bikes. The EVO is very sensitive to which oil filter is used. The internet boards regularly have guys with EVO engines posting about lubrication issues especially with an oil filter that is too restrictive. The HD lube systems wil go into bypass frequently because of the design. Which is one reason they have an internal bypass check valve. You can't relate the experiences of any other Motorcycles with the Harley air cooled designs. Just too different.


Edited by PT1 (06/17/08 09:20 AM)
_________________________
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#1174308 - 06/17/08 11:36 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5539
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
OK. I'll take that as good info. Do you have any specific references or such that I can read up on? Any links?

I've owned a few HD's, but never fell in "love" with them. Got out shortly after I got in. Just realized after a while, they weren't for me.

I do know that, due to the design nature of the 45deg V-twin with common crank pin, there has been, is, and always will be and oil level/crankcase pressure issue. Two HUGE pistons going up/down at nearly the same time makes it hard to control the presssure/vacuum cycles. That's why they use a dry sump system in the first place. A wet sump has a difficult time tolerating such vast and violent pressure changes. How that plays into lube system pressures is NOT a direct issue, but it does speak to some of the specific problems unique to a HD type engine.

As I recall, a dry sump type system uses two pumps. One is a low pressure, high volume scavenge pump that takes oil from the bottom of the crankcase and pushes it to the oil tank. Then, the oil feeds from that tank to a high pressure pump that supplies all the bearings, etc. This is how the Honda XR650L and such has been for years. Is the HD similar? If not, what differences exist? The reason I ask is that there is a difference between the oil pump bypass relieving, and the filter bypass relieving. I cannot resolve in my mind why the filter bypass would relieve in typical operation, but perhaps there's something more than meets the eye.

Still, I have to believe that Wix, Fram, Purolator and such would NOT have a direct recommendation for a filter that would jepoardize, or otherwise put at risk, any piece of equipment that they would have to pay for, presuming a failure of the filter, that didn't meet the engineering specs. On that note, I'd think you'd have to agree.

Further, do you have any direct information you can pass along (links, etc) that shows the specific HD specs for filtration and/or lubrication? From what I've seen, HD is very tight lipped about such info, preferring to have the HD faithful buy the HD branded stuff. For the longest time, HD didn't print much but their logo and grade on a bottle of oil. If there's something "special" about an HD oil filter, I'd love to see it in it's raw form. What is the filtration spec for the HD engine filter. That's a specific question. I realize they may sell a "premium" filter of micro-glass and such, but that's not required for proper operation. Just as we are all not required to run an Amsoil EaO filter on our cars, trucks, etc, there is likely no "requirement" of such a filter on the HD. It's likely a feel-good appliance added to the HD lineup.

For years, and even now, HD wants you to use their branded oil, but for goodness sake, if you've seen a few VOA's on the stuff, it certainly isn't anything special. I suspectd their filters are similar. What HD can evoke into brand loyality has little to do with the reality of where their specs stand. HD certainly isn't alone. Honda oil and fitlers aren't "special" by any standard either, unless you count in the price they want!

I'm not trying to be rude, I just have the annoying habit of wanting to see proof to reconcile facts in my mind. I love technical data. It's where the shade-tree gear-head meets the degree'd engineer in me.

Also, keep in mind that you're exempting a very specific relationship here from the OP's question. I still stand by my comment that there is no such thing as a motorcycle filter, or a boat filter, etc. Filters are made to an engineering standard of specs. As long as an aftermarket filter meets those specs, it is suitable for service and the OEM cannot deny warranty or otherwise blame the aftermarket item(s), realtive to the Magnuson-Moss warranty act, without proof of failure, and how the product(s) in question relate to the required specs.
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#1174472 - 06/17/08 03:46 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: dnewton3]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
I don't have any links but ask any HD wrench and he will tell you that all HD Vtwins go into by pass at every cold start up. The double gerotor oil pump which has one pump gear & one scavenge gear flows lots of volume but develops only 30-38psi under load (much less at idle)so the system relies upon oil volume moving through the engine uninterrupted. Now add some new hydraulic tensioners in the 96 engine and you need 5 micron filtration to keep those gunk free or else. Then add the bigger stroke & higher rotational mass of the 96 and you generate more heat than in the TC88 design configuration. SO the oil filter spec in this engine is critical to longevity from numerous angles. Add the fact that any damage done by using an oil filter not up to these specs will be so subtle & gradual that you will be out of warranty before any symptoms show up. The HD design guys have this system at it's maximum threshold so IMO changing any of the lube system criteria (oil filter is part of that) could cause a problem.

I have seen a couple of reports where guys have lowered the idle on a TC88 EFI model and worn the engine out of tolerance within 10,000 miles due to oil starvation which required a complete rebuild. That was reducing idle speed about 150rpm. (950-800)Interestingly, the engine was not making noise but the owners noticed gradual power loss to the point where they took it in for diagnosis.

BTW, the HD filters for the TC engines state 5 micron filtration on the box.

And if you want to know how different a HD Vtwin engine is hook a vacuum guage up to one sometime....you will see readings all over the place. Very very old time basic design they are still trying to optimize to suit the customer and the EPA at the same time. I think they will have to water cool it sooner or later as I am doubtful they will ever get one to pass the 2011 EPA specs.


Edited by PT1 (06/17/08 03:57 PM)
_________________________
Oils well that ends well...

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#1174522 - 06/17/08 05:01 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
MidnightG35X Offline


Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 39
Loc: Iowa
Lots of good info here guys. I asked a pretty broad question and got a ton of answers. The question I was trying to get at is it fine for me to use the Purolator PL14610 on my bike currently instead of the OEM Honda filter. I am not under warranty, so that isn't a concern for me, however engine longevity is.

Good stuff guys.

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#1174789 - 06/18/08 05:09 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: MidnightG35X]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5539
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Send me the HD part number for the filter you're referencing and I'll try to do some research on it. Still doesn't seem all the "special" to me.

It's my opinion that ALL filters go into bypass for a split second upon start up (if they have a bypass). But that doesn't last but for a fraction of a second. Once the total resistance equalizes in the oil lube pathway, the bypass will close. The HD engine is no different than any other pressure lubed system in that sense.

Regarding the bearing wear, I'll agree that low rpm can contribute to that. But that is not effected by the filter. The volumetric flow through the filter is not the main restriction to the system. The tight tolerances in the oil pathways are the main restriction. Therefore, the oil filter is NOT the contributing issue for oil starvation.

One of the main functions of the lube system is to seperate components from contact during motion, right? The pressure head of the oil system must be great enough to provide sufficient volume to have a rotating part "float" above a stationary part. What many don't realize is that the boundry layers of oil along the two parts are stationary, and as the flow moves towards the center of the action, it's velocity becomes greater. The spinning of the crank and cam and such actually create a hyrodynamic wedge, ala hydro-planning of sorts, that allows the moving component to float over the stationary one. If an oil filter can flow enough volume at full RPM to sustain this interaction, then a lack of flow at low rpm is not the fault of the filter, it's the fault of the pump. If an owner purposely drops the rpm of the engine at idle (very common for braggin' rights to some HD owners), then the low pressure supplied by the pump is to blame for the bearing issues, NOT the filter flow.

And again, I understand that the HD filter says 5um on the box. But I want to know what the spec for the lube system is. What PC and efficiency rating did HD design the engine for? Just because they make a super-duper filter, doesn't mean that's what's required for operation.

Get me some part numbers or reference manuals and I'll try to help figure this out.

BTW - in general, I don't trust many mechanicas at all. For me to ask an HD wrench jockey for his opinion just isn't my nature. Most (not all) of them are not my idea of well educated in the world of tribology, filtration efficiency, etc. Yup - they can turn a wrench. And yup - they probably got some certificate from some HD or motor cycle mechanic school. But I've had too many experiences to prove otherwise. In fact, if you went to 5 different HD dealerships and asked 5 different "mechanics" for their "opinion" on the very topic we're discussing, you'd probably get 1 answer; "We use what HD says, 'cause it's the best". Most of them are just as brainwashed as the rest of the HD faithful. They cannot compare and contrast the merits of lubrication. They just burp out a pre-programmed answer. On top of that, mystique runs DEEP in HD circles; it's very hard to get facts on HD topics. You get a lot of "he said this" and "they say that", but FACTS from documented sources; that's rare!

But in no way is that unique to HD. All the other major m/c brands are just as bad. Brand loyality often blinds those who stay within the fold.
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#1174820 - 06/18/08 06:53 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: dnewton3]
kballowe Offline


Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 974
Loc: East Central Missouri
All of us Harley-Davidson sheep just buy the Harley Genuine oil filters because they're chrome. That's the REAL answer.

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#1174823 - 06/18/08 06:57 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: MidnightG35X]
kballowe Offline


Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 974
Loc: East Central Missouri
 Originally Posted By: MidnightG35X
Lots of good info here guys. I asked a pretty broad question and got a ton of answers. The question I was trying to get at is it fine for me to use the Purolator PL14610 on my bike currently instead of the OEM Honda filter. I am not under warranty, so that isn't a concern for me, however engine longevity is.

Good stuff guys.


Yes.

Actually, we use the L14610 (Premium Plus) .vs "PL" Pure one now because the "PL" series is that stupid gold color.

If you like a OEM length Purolator use the 14612. It's a little shorter and it's white and I have to tell you that a $2 rattle-can of your favorite color will spray-paint a LOT of white filters.

Works for me.

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#1174853 - 06/18/08 07:59 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: kballowe]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5539
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
"All of us Harley-Davidson sheep just buy the Harley Genuine oil filters because they're chrome. That's the REAL answer."

Untrue.

But it's funny!


Edited by dnewton3 (06/18/08 07:59 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#1174864 - 06/18/08 08:37 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: dnewton3]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
HD part # 63798-99a and you can get them in black on the internet for $6-7. So why not use them?


Edited by PT1 (06/18/08 08:38 AM)
_________________________
Oils well that ends well...

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