RLI Biosyn 5W40, Audi RS4 update

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Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
The Castrol had 4000 less miles on it. It's really hard to compare FP or fuel % directly, unless you make the two runs under exactly the same conditions. I was able to do that with my engine. I also suspect that at 10K miles, the RLI was getting pretty well-worn, as evidenced by the reduced VI over VOA.

Here's an interesting plot of the RS4 engine data:...........


Just to clarify, is this latest plot from your RS4 engine, or all 20 RS4 engines?
 
I do not see where the difference is all that great in the end. I could see if you where in triple digit wear metal figures and it brought it down to low double digits or something like that but it really does not make sense to me. From a cost standpoint you really are not getting much more for the additional investment. What is RLI up to $$$ something like $16-$20 a quart plus tax and shipping.

Have you tried any other 5W40's like plain jane RTS 5W40 from Walmart for $16 a gallon? Maybe Delvac-1 5W40 or Delo 5W40 or Havoline Synthetic 5W40 etc.....How about Amsoil Series 3000 HDDEO 5w30? rEDLINE 5w40? sCHAFFERS 5w40 ETC????? Their are plenty of products that cheaper then RLI that I think will take care of this engine nicely without picking your pocket book clean!!!

Heck int he warm like spring and summer and part of fall I would even consider running dino or synthetic 15W40!!!
 
Well, he surely isn't buying it for sensible economic reasons.

The graph pretty much shows lower RLI indications further out on the X axis than the other oil(s)..with it probably reaching some fatigue point and climbing. Virtually all of the "others" are grouped into the lower mileage end and the higher fuel dilution end
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John

RLI is currently in the $10 range including shipping, when purchased in gallons.

I'd be glad to let you experiment on an expensive engine yourself. You do not seem to understand that in a 10 quart sump, the wear numbers should be scaled accordingly. 10 ppm in a 10 Quart sump = 30 ppm in a 3.3 quart sump.

I did run Rotella CJ4 10W40 as a test. It's pretty much destroyed in < 3K miles.
 
iirc, there was a wide range of oil formulations tried by RS4. Someone should just list them here real quick.

fwiw, the Fuchs products are pretty nice. Supposedly they use the same methylcrylate bases as GC. The Titan 0w-20 claims to be safe "in any engine". I wonder how some of their thick MC oils would do, since they are WIDELY available.
 
I've just updated the fuel dilution plot above. There was a mistake in my sorting. Just refresh your browser.


Audi Junkie, here are the list of oils that have been analyzed in the RS4:

Amsoil 5W40
Castrol Syntec 5W-40
Castrol TXT 505 5w40
Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40
Factory Oil
Fuchs Titan GT1 5W-30
Lubro-Moly Vollsynthese 5w40
Mobil 1 0W-40
Motul 300V 5W-40
Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40
Motul 8100 X-lite 0W30
Motul Xcess 5W-40
Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40
RLI Biosyn 10W-40 PCMO
RLI Biosyn 40W
RLI Biosyn 5W-40
Rotella T CJ4 10W-30
 
The Biosyn clearly shows a reduction in Fe wear over the 502 oils. It will be interesting in time to see if those using the 502 oils end up with more engine problems or failures vs those using BioSyn.
 
First Scalability of wear metals based on sump size is not even close to right! What you think their is a nice 1:1 ratio that you can extrapolate based on wear meatals and sumb size to compare to vechiles with larger or smaller sumps? Granted I was the guy that got a c- in college calc but I know that is not right! Second you answer then would be now you did not try the oils I asked about but you have tried many others. Third you are experimenting yourself with a non Audi approved oil on this "expensive engine". RLI was a huge risk since they where completly unknown factor. I at least recomended name brand produicts with a proven track record and proven chmeistry. What do you think that you are going to wear this engine out anytime soon? If you owned it for a total of 300,000 miles and never used RLI again I think you will have gotten your money's worth out of the engine!First no engine last's for ever and all of them wear out sooner or latter. The higher the perfromance usualy the sooner rather then the latter. You will grow tired of this car,sell it, be in an acident with it or park it and turn it into a garage queen long before you ever wear this engine out soley based on your choice of oils! It is an Audi not an Duesenburg! The seals will will need replaceing on it before you ever wear the mechaincals out if it is like most Audi's! All engines are expensive if you need to replace one suddenly. It not like I drive a mid 1980's Chevrolet and I can just trade a case of beer for a small block chevy motor hanging from a tree in someones back yard!

So what is the cost of RLI if I do not buy it buy the gallon??? I can not imagine paying $40 a gallon for oil that is only going to be in the engine a short time beofre it is loaded with fuel and needs changeing! I would have to get an oil burning furnace and write off part of my oil change as a home heating expense!!LOL So you are currently spending $100 per oil change just on the oil?!?!

Maybe we are going the wrong direction maybe in the warm months you should cnsider running an SAE 50,60 or 70 oil? In know in Austraila they used to have 25W70 I do not know if they still have that in the land down under but that might also be an option. After all performance is all that counts right? Their is no "my oil cost more then your oil" contest going on or anything like that correct?


So how does your chart interpolate to a projected TBO? How much more time between over hauls is RLI projected to buy you? How long do you plan on owning the car? Just woundering since you seem to have put a lot of thought into this as this has been an on going project? Have you considered buying replacement parts like ordering pistons,rings,bearing etc.... I used to do with engines I knew I would I be wearing out. So when I decided it time for a rebuild I already had replacement raceing parts on hand.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hello,
RI_RS4 - You said this;

"10 ppm in a 10 Quart sump = 30 ppm in a 3.3 quart sump."

Can you please explain................


Sure, generally the actual physical wear rate of an engine reaches homeostasis between the amount of wear particles of any size removed from engine metal and placed in the oil, and the amount of wear particles removed from the oil and captured by the filter. This results in an amount of metal particles deposited into the oil and diluted by the size of the oil sump.

Another way to look at this is by taking a wear measurement and computing the total weight of metal particles in the entire oil system. This is as simple as multiplying the ppm value by the total weight of the oil in the sump and dividing by 1 million.

Total wear by weight = ppm wear x total volume of oil x weight of oil per unit volume / 1,000,000

Weight = ppm x V x weight per volume / 1M

Thus, if you have two engines with two different size sumps, one that is 10 quarts, the other that is 3.333 quarts, and both measure 10 ppm, there is 3 times as much wear metal in the 10 quart system than the 3.333 quart system.

Weight(10qt)/ Weight(3.333qt) = (10 ppm x 10Qt x weight per volume /1M)/ (10 ppm x 3.333Qt x weight per volume/1M)

thus:
Weight(10qt)/Weight(3.333qt) @ 10 ppm = 10/3.333 = 3
At the same ppm measurement, there are 3 times as many wear particles in the 10 quart system than there are in the 3.333 quart system.

ICP measures the amount of a particular particle by weight. However, if there is more oil, there is a larger volume(weight)of oil to dilute the metal particles in. Thus, the larger the total volume of oil, the smaller the ppm measurement. This is a standard ratio problem.

There is a certain point, of course, where additional metal in the oil will itself cause an acceleration in wear rates, due to additional abrasion. I assume here that that we are not dealing with non-linear wear caused by particle abrasion ... however, that is not always the case in engines with silicon ingestion problems.
 
John,

On point 1 you are just wrong. Please see my post above. It does not require calculus to understand. This is a simple ratio problem.

Yes, I am experimenting with a non-approved oil, where I see a different and better wear profile by design than with approved oils.

Whether or not it makes economic sense is not part of my particular equation. If it's part of yours, that's fine. My economics work out when RLI is compared to approved oils.

I'm concerned with high iron wear numbers in an engine that has very few iron bearings. This is an Al engine, with Al/Si cylinder walls. most of the Fe is shed from cams, rockers, and cam chains. It is most likely that the predominance of the Fe wear comes from the cam chain, which is a single row design with bushings and not rollers. If a cam chain, or tensioner needs to be replaced in this engine, it's a very expensive proposition.

502 approved oils are typically $5/quart if bought by the gallon, or $50 per oil change. RLI is $10/quart if bought by the gallon, or $100 per oil change. RLI oil can run for 10K miles between changes, with less wear than an Audi 502 oil run for 5K miles. Based on this, I'd say that when comparing RLI to 502 oils, the cost is at least a wash. However, Al and Si wear indicators are also slightly lower at 10K miles for RLI than they are at 5-7K miles for 502 oils, so there seem to be additional wear benefits.

Whether this all translates to addition useful life in the engine is up for debate. However, on a cost basis, when compared to Audi 502 approved, RLI wins, since the cost is marginally 2X higher, but the OCI is 2X longer, and only one change is needed, rather than two.
 
If you want to validate your position have Terry digest your samples too (he found a lab to do it). You can also (if I recall Jag's comments) get a PQ (test ..factor ..whatever it is) to determine some sizing relationship to indications.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
If you want to validate your position have Terry digest your samples too (he found a lab to do it). You can also (if I recall Jag's comments) get a PQ (test ..factor ..whatever it is) to determine some sizing relationship to indications.


Gary, I have no idea what you are suggesting. Which of my many positions would you like me to validate?
 
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RI_RS4 I can nopt argue that your responce was clear,concise and well thought out! I see wwhere you are going but I do question the why though??? It just seems like a waste of money unless you are going to keep this vechile for a long long long time! Even then with high end performance vechiles a certain amoutn of additonal cost of ownership is the norm. To bad you could not fix the overly rich condition with a reflash or with different parts etc....At best the RLI is a band aid for a much deeper design or programing flaw!
 
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
............ I see wwhere you are going but I do question the why though??? It just seems like a waste of money unless you are going to keep this vechile for a long long long time! ...........


Buying a RS4 instead of a Camry is also a "waste of money", based on your reasoning. It is clear to me that RI RS4 is an auto enthusiast, and an oil enthusiast, and has no qualms about spending money on his interests.
 
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
RI_RS4 I can nopt argue that your responce was clear,concise and well thought out! I see wwhere you are going but I do question the why though??? It just seems like a waste of money unless you are going to keep this vechile for a long long long time! Even then with high end performance vechiles a certain amoutn of additonal cost of ownership is the norm. To bad you could not fix the overly rich condition with a reflash or with different parts etc....At best the RLI is a band aid for a much deeper design or programing flaw!


He sold his RS4 awhile ago and bought an A6 3.2. I think he put 30-40k on the RS4.

RI_RS4: with those flashpoint numbers, how well do you expect this oil to hold up in a turbocharged DI car like the 2.0t FSI? Also, did RLI ever post any specific HTHS figures other than > 2.9?

Dave
 
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Crew,

Yep, I did trade it for an A6 3.2 with FSI. Turns out that the 3.2 engine has similar issues, and reports higher ppm Fe wear, because the sump is 6 quarts, instead of 10 quarts. (Smaller sump, higher ppm numbers given similar internal engine wear profile.)

No new HTHS numbers that I am aware of. But based on the VI of 189 for the RLI Biosyn 5W40 oil built for Audi engines, and a very stable 100C viscosity, it should be extremely high. Contact Bill Garmier about this, if you like. As I understand it, a higher VI changes the slope of the viscosity curve, keeping the viscosity higher at temperatures above 100C than lower VI oil of similar viscosity. In addition, the VIIs used in the RLI 5W40 are extremely stable and expensive, which is one reason for the higher cost.

The RLI 5W40 oil has been used in turbocharged BMW 335i applications, which are showing extremely high oil temperatures, and outperforming the BMW oil. Terry Dyson has a few customers whose engines were destroyed when the standard BMW oil was cooked.

It may also help better control wear on that high pressure fuel pump cam on your engine, which uses a tappet type follower. The Biosyn formula seems to protect the ZDDP tribo layers by keeping them from being washed away by the fuel. (One of the reasons for higher Fe wear in fuel diluting engines.)
 
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I've lurked around here for about 2 years and have kept up with RLI (among other things) on this board but haven't said anything yet. I decided that I would put in my 2 cents now.

I used 5w40HD in my aftermarket turbo'd '96 Miata with great results (backed by UOA). Normally, I was having to change M1, PP, and RedLine at 3k miles on my stock motor. When the hydraulic lash adjusters on Miatas start making noise, it's time to change the oil. Search the Miata forums and you'll find TONS of info on the subject. The RLI made it 5k miles before I got any noise...and that was AFTER boost and a LOT of hard racing. Then I tried M1, RedLine, and PP again...same thing. I used 10w40 PP, 10w40 RedLine (which is recommended by the manufacturer of the turbo kit for turbo and S/C Miatas) and I even used a mix of 0w40 and 15w50 M1 to thicken it up to see if I could extend the OCI at all, but it never failed, at around 3k miles, noisey HLA's until I'd change the oil. I did a lot of experimentation, but RLI was the only oil that held up. I also used Auto-RX at 80k miles (just before the turbo went on) and am using it now at at 103k miles. After this, I feel that RLI is all I'll really need for lubrication and cleanliness. Our '01 WS6 (76,XXX mi.) is about to receive an Auto-RX treatment and then will go on RLI for life. For M1 & PP at $20/gallon, RedLine at $33/gallon, and RLI at $32/gallon, I feel that the extended OCI's, engine protection, and use of HOBS (renewable resources!) with RLI's products is an amazing deal, AND an enviornmentaly responsible choice. More and more government, industrial, and private agencies/companies are picking up on and and using RLI. Is it any wonder? I've seen the results personally after experimenting with MANY concoctions and am VERY impressed with RLI :), and VERY disappointed with some big name companies
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. I love RLI and won't ever look back. I'm a firm believer in RLI.
 
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When the hydraulic lash adjusters on Miatas start making noise, it's time to change the oil.

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What viscosity drop are you getting?
 
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