Elkpolk, I don't think your following distance is a problem if you are driving in that manner. When it becomes a problem is when the only way you can tell that someone is behind you is by watching the shadows on the ground. In my 16 years and 2.5 million accident free miles I've had that happen many times. I remedy this by backing the cruise control off one mph at a time until they just go ahead and pass. If that doesn't work it's time for a quick coffee break at the next available opportunity. I don't want their ignorance to ruin my day.
Does following (drafting) a semi really save gas?
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Just saw another trucker tailgating 5ft from a car on the freeway today because the car was only doing 80mph which just wasnt quite fast enough for the trucker since he didnt like slowing down from 85mph. Did the car give in to the attempted intimidation and get over so he could pass? No. Did the trucker really need to go that fast? No. The trucker backed off and drove 75mph from then on and the car stayed at 80mph leaving him way behind.
Truck drivers need to bone-up and realize THEY are the professionals and should act accordingly. What happened to the whole "convoy" thing? Why can't a bunch of you get on yer CBs and figure out how fast ya'll want to go and huddle up together in the right lane? What's so hard abou that? Instead you want to play leap-frog and take turns passing each other at +/- 2 mph. There should definately be more lane and timing restrictions on trucks. No trucks in left lane during rush hours on metro highways. Sure, give incentives like 100% toll rebates strait to the driver, off-off peak...etc. The whole truck vs car thing is got kind of bad. fwiw, the PA Tpk is a mere 2 lanes, same w/80 & 81. Not a picnic and no place for dueling.
Look how close Nascar racers are when in a pack.
Not for me on the highway with a huge semi with air brakes and a P O'd driver.
Not for me on the highway with a huge semi with air brakes and a P O'd driver.
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Quote:
Can't agree at all on that one I'm afraid. Risk in traffic is constantly variable and we adjust for it by altering our following distances, among other things. In close traffic everybody probably accepts that they are encountering additional risk, just as they do in poor weather conditions, for example. When not in close traffic, should you maintain the same close following distance that might be acceptable in dense traffic, you are by election accepting an unnecessary additional risk and subjecting those around you to an additional risk as well. Whether the risk is worth the benefit is open to discussion, but it is not merely a matter of perception. The risk exists.
My humble opinion.
Ah ..but that humble opinion is primary hinged on risks to yourself ..and our primary discussion, albeit somewhat sidetracked from the OP, is the risk to the SEMI DRIVER and his reaction/perception to vehicles in proximity to him.
Now there's no denying that the more vehicles in close proximity to each other... the more risk there is ..but "in a vacuum" we're asking here if there is any rationale~ other than "it bothers me so I'm going to kick stones up and damage your vehicle just because I can exercising right of weight.".
Suppose I'm alone with the truck and following at 65mph with 60' of room between us? Traffic is filtering past us, but no one is lingering around. What is the risk to him ..or for that matter, myself?
Can't agree at all on that one I'm afraid. Risk in traffic is constantly variable and we adjust for it by altering our following distances, among other things. In close traffic everybody probably accepts that they are encountering additional risk, just as they do in poor weather conditions, for example. When not in close traffic, should you maintain the same close following distance that might be acceptable in dense traffic, you are by election accepting an unnecessary additional risk and subjecting those around you to an additional risk as well. Whether the risk is worth the benefit is open to discussion, but it is not merely a matter of perception. The risk exists.
My humble opinion.
Ah ..but that humble opinion is primary hinged on risks to yourself ..and our primary discussion, albeit somewhat sidetracked from the OP, is the risk to the SEMI DRIVER and his reaction/perception to vehicles in proximity to him.
Now there's no denying that the more vehicles in close proximity to each other... the more risk there is ..but "in a vacuum" we're asking here if there is any rationale~ other than "it bothers me so I'm going to kick stones up and damage your vehicle just because I can exercising right of weight.".
Suppose I'm alone with the truck and following at 65mph with 60' of room between us? Traffic is filtering past us, but no one is lingering around. What is the risk to him ..or for that matter, myself?
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Truck drivers need to bone-up and realize THEY are the professionals and should act accordingly. What happened to the whole "convoy" thing? Why can't a bunch of you get on yer CBs and figure out how fast ya'll want to go and huddle up together in the right lane? What's so hard abou that? Instead you want to play leap-frog and take turns passing each other at +/- 2 mph. There should definately be more lane and timing restrictions on trucks. No trucks in left lane during rush hours on metro highways. Sure, give incentives like 100% toll rebates strait to the driver, off-off peak...etc. The whole truck vs car thing is got kind of bad. fwiw, the PA Tpk is a mere 2 lanes, same w/80 & 81. Not a picnic and no place for dueling.
I drive an 18 wheeler, and my opinion is that the thru trucks should be allowed in the left lane. If they all hang out in the right lane, every car that doesn't know how to merge will slow them down instead of them being out of the way to begin with. This wastes a lot of fuel and could cause an accident. As far as the passing @ 2 mph is concerned, most company trucks are governed, so if the other truck speeds up while you're passing him, then this can be a problem for other drivers. I will almost never block the left land for more than 30 seconds to 1 minute or so, but if that happens, I'm sorry. Not my intention to hold anyone up, just want you to understand why. Unfortunately, limiting hours to night won't work, as there are different p/u and delivery times where you must be on the road at certain times. Also, there are already hours of service restrictions in place that this may interfere with.
Truck drivers need to bone-up and realize THEY are the professionals and should act accordingly. What happened to the whole "convoy" thing? Why can't a bunch of you get on yer CBs and figure out how fast ya'll want to go and huddle up together in the right lane? What's so hard abou that? Instead you want to play leap-frog and take turns passing each other at +/- 2 mph. There should definately be more lane and timing restrictions on trucks. No trucks in left lane during rush hours on metro highways. Sure, give incentives like 100% toll rebates strait to the driver, off-off peak...etc. The whole truck vs car thing is got kind of bad. fwiw, the PA Tpk is a mere 2 lanes, same w/80 & 81. Not a picnic and no place for dueling.
I drive an 18 wheeler, and my opinion is that the thru trucks should be allowed in the left lane. If they all hang out in the right lane, every car that doesn't know how to merge will slow them down instead of them being out of the way to begin with. This wastes a lot of fuel and could cause an accident. As far as the passing @ 2 mph is concerned, most company trucks are governed, so if the other truck speeds up while you're passing him, then this can be a problem for other drivers. I will almost never block the left land for more than 30 seconds to 1 minute or so, but if that happens, I'm sorry. Not my intention to hold anyone up, just want you to understand why. Unfortunately, limiting hours to night won't work, as there are different p/u and delivery times where you must be on the road at certain times. Also, there are already hours of service restrictions in place that this may interfere with.
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I don't draft behind the big trucks as saving ___% of fuel isn't worth it.
What I do though is drive in the truck's side shade in the hot summer days, making sure I'm in his side view of course.
What I do though is drive in the truck's side shade in the hot summer days, making sure I'm in his side view of course.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Ah ..but that humble opinion is primary hinged on risks to yourself ..and our primary discussion, albeit somewhat sidetracked from the OP, is the risk to the SEMI DRIVER and his reaction/perception to vehicles in proximity to him.
Yes, I agree, and throwing up rocks is out of line. I suppose there could be a risk to the semi driver if he has to be concerned with your safety, driving behind him, and has less concentration to spare on other things going on. If he sees a tire tread that he's about to straddle, for example, and he knows you might not be able to avoid it, what is he going to do? If he's a conscientious human being, he'll probably try to take some evasive action or change lanes, and then you're creating an emergency for him by having been following at a close distance.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Suppose I'm alone with the truck and following at 65mph with 60' of room between us? Traffic is filtering past us, but no one is lingering around. What is the risk to him ..or for that matter, myself?
Not much, and I've done it myself. I don't really disagree with your analysis, overall, but I get the impression that my own comfort level probably gets triggered at a somewhat more conservative distance than yours.
I do remember one time, in the late summer of '89 as a matter of fact, I was traveling cross country by motorcycle and lost my wallet. I was drafting semis within 30' or so to try to get home on the gas I had. One of them radioed for a trooper, who I did not see coming up behind me because my attempt at personal aerodynamics did not allow for a good rear view. I must have looked like an idiot. He explained to me exactly what would happen if one of the 100psi treads on that semi had decided to blow up, and I explained to him why exactly I was taking that risk. He himself was a decent human being and actually helped me out and didn't give me a ticket.
That was in Kansas. I always get good vibes in Kansas.
Ah ..but that humble opinion is primary hinged on risks to yourself ..and our primary discussion, albeit somewhat sidetracked from the OP, is the risk to the SEMI DRIVER and his reaction/perception to vehicles in proximity to him.
Yes, I agree, and throwing up rocks is out of line. I suppose there could be a risk to the semi driver if he has to be concerned with your safety, driving behind him, and has less concentration to spare on other things going on. If he sees a tire tread that he's about to straddle, for example, and he knows you might not be able to avoid it, what is he going to do? If he's a conscientious human being, he'll probably try to take some evasive action or change lanes, and then you're creating an emergency for him by having been following at a close distance.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Suppose I'm alone with the truck and following at 65mph with 60' of room between us? Traffic is filtering past us, but no one is lingering around. What is the risk to him ..or for that matter, myself?
Not much, and I've done it myself. I don't really disagree with your analysis, overall, but I get the impression that my own comfort level probably gets triggered at a somewhat more conservative distance than yours.
I do remember one time, in the late summer of '89 as a matter of fact, I was traveling cross country by motorcycle and lost my wallet. I was drafting semis within 30' or so to try to get home on the gas I had. One of them radioed for a trooper, who I did not see coming up behind me because my attempt at personal aerodynamics did not allow for a good rear view. I must have looked like an idiot. He explained to me exactly what would happen if one of the 100psi treads on that semi had decided to blow up, and I explained to him why exactly I was taking that risk. He himself was a decent human being and actually helped me out and didn't give me a ticket.
That was in Kansas. I always get good vibes in Kansas.
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Always wondered if truckers hated you driving behind them. I used to "draft" and get 45+MPG on my normally 38MPG drive. That is until a semi-trucker darted off into the emergency lane adding several knicks in my windshield and dents in my engine hood. Kinda got the idea the dude didn't appreciate me drafting... Still, I think the reaction was very hostile - had half a mind to show it to him too but better things to worry about in life.
Now, if I am behind a semi - I make sure the driver can see me in his/her mirrors - they tend to be ok with that (2 or so car lengths) and you get a minor increase in MPG (5mpg or so). I'd rather drive 75mph (with traffic) and get home faster (2 hour drive so 60mph vs 75mph is a difference).
Now, if I am behind a semi - I make sure the driver can see me in his/her mirrors - they tend to be ok with that (2 or so car lengths) and you get a minor increase in MPG (5mpg or so). I'd rather drive 75mph (with traffic) and get home faster (2 hour drive so 60mph vs 75mph is a difference).
Originally Posted By: InvalidUserID
I don't draft behind the big trucks as saving ___% of fuel isn't worth it.
What I do though is drive in the truck's side shade in the hot summer days, making sure I'm in his side view of course.
When one of his tires blows up and sends peices flying into your car and almost scares you off the road as happened to me once then that habbit will stop. My recommendation is to never drive beside or behind them and pass them quickly when beside them.
I don't draft behind the big trucks as saving ___% of fuel isn't worth it.
What I do though is drive in the truck's side shade in the hot summer days, making sure I'm in his side view of course.
When one of his tires blows up and sends peices flying into your car and almost scares you off the road as happened to me once then that habbit will stop. My recommendation is to never drive beside or behind them and pass them quickly when beside them.
Come on, guys, this is a really bicker-y post, and I'm shocked at how many folks seem to actually favor the tailgating in favor of their own personal mpg. It's the darndest thing I've heard. And then taking the side of "Why should you care, you're still safe?" is just the same small-pie attitude that says that the size of your car dictates your rights and non-rights to how you bend/interpret traffic law. The trucker who doesn't want some tailgating has a right as a good person to NOT WANT TO BE TANGLED IN ANY KIND OF ACCIDENT because accidents are BAD. We have so many do-gooder folks on this board that I'm amazed that in one thread we bash SUVs/Trucks,etc as a stereotype, praise our own mpg, all for the betterment of the world, and then we plead our case as to why one person should be allowed to tailgate someone else.
I've owned big cars and small cars. I hate it universally when someone tailgates me. It's dangerous for people on the road, not just you the would-be tailgater but everyone else that gets injured/killed during the pileup that results at 65 mph.
This board, which I greatly enjoy, can't have it both ways. We can't take pride in being a more world-aware, intellectual board in one thread and then demonstrate this short-sighted, "me"-based attitude in the next.
Mike :-(
I've owned big cars and small cars. I hate it universally when someone tailgates me. It's dangerous for people on the road, not just you the would-be tailgater but everyone else that gets injured/killed during the pileup that results at 65 mph.
This board, which I greatly enjoy, can't have it both ways. We can't take pride in being a more world-aware, intellectual board in one thread and then demonstrate this short-sighted, "me"-based attitude in the next.
Mike :-(
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A buddy of mine told me he had a hybrid that read 90 mpg behind a semi. Didnt myth busters test this theory once and did actually work.
re: driving beside a semi mentioned above, that seems very dangerous. It would cut off an escape lane for the semi that he could normally use to avoid objects in the road or to switch lanes when a car is parked on the right shoulder.
A couple times I have seen things like boats or big objects that have fallen off and are laying right in the middle of the lane. With no ability to get around it that is almost a guaranteed accident.
Plus those semi's are wide. If I was driving one and trying to keep it between the lines and someone boxed me in I would not be a happy camper. Plus that left lane needs to stay open for emergency vehicles and idiots driving too fast (the sooner they are past you and gone the safer you are).
Maybe I misunderstood the driving next to it for shade comment. I try to get around semi's as fast as possible because they just have less wiggle room than cars do and it is unsafe IMO to linger beside them.
A couple times I have seen things like boats or big objects that have fallen off and are laying right in the middle of the lane. With no ability to get around it that is almost a guaranteed accident.
Plus those semi's are wide. If I was driving one and trying to keep it between the lines and someone boxed me in I would not be a happy camper. Plus that left lane needs to stay open for emergency vehicles and idiots driving too fast (the sooner they are past you and gone the safer you are).
Maybe I misunderstood the driving next to it for shade comment. I try to get around semi's as fast as possible because they just have less wiggle room than cars do and it is unsafe IMO to linger beside them.
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Originally Posted By: meep
Come on, guys, this is a really bicker-y post, and I'm shocked at how many folks seem to actually favor the tailgating in favor of their own personal mpg. It's the darndest thing I've heard. And then taking the side of "Why should you care, you're still safe?" is just the same small-pie attitude that says that the size of your car dictates your rights and non-rights to how you bend/interpret traffic law. The trucker who doesn't want some tailgating has a right as a good person to NOT WANT TO BE TANGLED IN ANY KIND OF ACCIDENT because accidents are BAD. We have so many do-gooder folks on this board that I'm amazed that in one thread we bash SUVs/Trucks,etc as a stereotype, praise our own mpg, all for the betterment of the world, and then we plead our case as to why one person should be allowed to tailgate someone else.
I've owned big cars and small cars. I hate it universally when someone tailgates me. It's dangerous for people on the road, not just you the would-be tailgater but everyone else that gets injured/killed during the pileup that results at 65 mph.
This board, which I greatly enjoy, can't have it both ways. We can't take pride in being a more world-aware, intellectual board in one thread and then demonstrate this short-sighted, "me"-based attitude in the next.
Mike :-(
...but meep, you seem to confuse drafting with tailgaiting ..an important distinction if you're earnestly evaluating the content of those who are comfortable with the concept.
That is, you're "morphing" it to put those who do see the favorable aspects of drafting in an indefensible position on a rhetorical level.
It's the difference between a bona fide reckless condition and one that's vastly reduced from that status.
There's a big difference in how you refer to something:
Q: would you accept higher taxes if it provided better education and more police protection to reduce crime?
Q: Would you be willing to give even more money to political bimbos to blow on their friends at your expense.
Q: Would you accept someone sitting 50-60' behind you in traffic. Would it bother you and why?
Q: Would you object to reckless death wish h-ellbound drivers tailgating you risking many lives and the wrath of your deity of choice?
That's sorta how you expressed it ..with a little less polarity.
Come on, guys, this is a really bicker-y post, and I'm shocked at how many folks seem to actually favor the tailgating in favor of their own personal mpg. It's the darndest thing I've heard. And then taking the side of "Why should you care, you're still safe?" is just the same small-pie attitude that says that the size of your car dictates your rights and non-rights to how you bend/interpret traffic law. The trucker who doesn't want some tailgating has a right as a good person to NOT WANT TO BE TANGLED IN ANY KIND OF ACCIDENT because accidents are BAD. We have so many do-gooder folks on this board that I'm amazed that in one thread we bash SUVs/Trucks,etc as a stereotype, praise our own mpg, all for the betterment of the world, and then we plead our case as to why one person should be allowed to tailgate someone else.
I've owned big cars and small cars. I hate it universally when someone tailgates me. It's dangerous for people on the road, not just you the would-be tailgater but everyone else that gets injured/killed during the pileup that results at 65 mph.
This board, which I greatly enjoy, can't have it both ways. We can't take pride in being a more world-aware, intellectual board in one thread and then demonstrate this short-sighted, "me"-based attitude in the next.
Mike :-(
...but meep, you seem to confuse drafting with tailgaiting ..an important distinction if you're earnestly evaluating the content of those who are comfortable with the concept.
That is, you're "morphing" it to put those who do see the favorable aspects of drafting in an indefensible position on a rhetorical level.
It's the difference between a bona fide reckless condition and one that's vastly reduced from that status.
There's a big difference in how you refer to something:
Q: would you accept higher taxes if it provided better education and more police protection to reduce crime?
Q: Would you be willing to give even more money to political bimbos to blow on their friends at your expense.
Q: Would you accept someone sitting 50-60' behind you in traffic. Would it bother you and why?
Q: Would you object to reckless death wish h-ellbound drivers tailgating you risking many lives and the wrath of your deity of choice?
That's sorta how you expressed it ..with a little less polarity.
I sort of agree-
-if someone is going to draft, it will be on the highway at a steady-state speed.
-the truck stops more slowly than your car. All things being perfect, you'd never hit the truck.
-you aren't affecting the truck drivers ability to drive safely at all- he can't even see that area behind the truck. So it makes no difference at all whether you are there or not.
-as for side drafting, trucks do it all the time. Ever been on the highway when a truck is in the right lane doing 55, and another truck goes into the left lane and passes him at 56? Happens all the time. The second truck is doing this slow pass only for fuel economy. So why can't I?
-and if it's a three lane highway, and the truck is cruising in the middle lane (IE, he's not trying to get back into the right lane), I have all the right in the world to match his speed in the right lane beside him. After all, you're not supposed to pass on the right anyway.
It is more dangerous for the car to do either thing, but only for the car. If the driver is aware of the danger, seems fine to me.
-if someone is going to draft, it will be on the highway at a steady-state speed.
-the truck stops more slowly than your car. All things being perfect, you'd never hit the truck.
-you aren't affecting the truck drivers ability to drive safely at all- he can't even see that area behind the truck. So it makes no difference at all whether you are there or not.
-as for side drafting, trucks do it all the time. Ever been on the highway when a truck is in the right lane doing 55, and another truck goes into the left lane and passes him at 56? Happens all the time. The second truck is doing this slow pass only for fuel economy. So why can't I?
-and if it's a three lane highway, and the truck is cruising in the middle lane (IE, he's not trying to get back into the right lane), I have all the right in the world to match his speed in the right lane beside him. After all, you're not supposed to pass on the right anyway.
It is more dangerous for the car to do either thing, but only for the car. If the driver is aware of the danger, seems fine to me.
meep, I was trying to get people to be more specific and start putting numbers on their terms: "tailgating," "hanging on the bumper," and "following too close." (EKpolk came the closest) but you went the other way and clouded the issue with the same vague terms and claims of numerous accidents being caused by very aware and conscientious drivers.
I still want someone to tell me how close is too close.
As some of us have pointed out, in heavy traffic, sometimes there is 20'-30' or less between vehicles. Then why, on the open road is 50'-70' "too close?"
I still think it's mostly an emotional issue ... with very little facts or logic to support that this common practice is a danger to anyone.
"you aren't affecting the truck drivers ability to drive safely at all - he can't even see that area behind the truck. So it makes no difference at all whether you are there or not."
Exactly.
I still want someone to tell me how close is too close.
As some of us have pointed out, in heavy traffic, sometimes there is 20'-30' or less between vehicles. Then why, on the open road is 50'-70' "too close?"
I still think it's mostly an emotional issue ... with very little facts or logic to support that this common practice is a danger to anyone.
"you aren't affecting the truck drivers ability to drive safely at all - he can't even see that area behind the truck. So it makes no difference at all whether you are there or not."
Exactly.
Man, I really respect you guys, I do - my post was a condemning one and your responses are genteel, but I still think we are "full of ourselves" here.
Please- someone define the distances for drafting. I'm imagining 1 car length, and that's where my arguements stem from. If we're talking about 3-4, that sounds like typical Atlanta beltway density where, BTW the accidents can get pretty gruesome but you can't avoid it--lots of folks on the road.
"-the truck stops more slowly than your car. All things being perfect, you'd never hit the truck."
driving conditions are never perfect. Are you a perfect driver? also requires follower to be perfectly attentive. Never glance away, pick up the cel, etc.
"-you aren't affecting the truck drivers ability to drive safely at all- he can't even see that area behind the truck. So it makes no difference at all whether you are there or not."
I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that for the sake of his day and humanity in general, he has a right to not wish to be in an accident. He's seen his share. It's formed his opinion, and he has a right to want to maintain safe practices. Pulling an injured or lifeless body from a car really changes your outlook on traffic accidents.
"-as for side drafting,"
I have no issue with side drafting as long as traffic isnt being blocked.
"It is more dangerous for the car to do either thing, but only for the car. If the driver is aware of the danger, seems fine to me. "
If you tangle with a semi, snap a steering rod and careen into another vehicle, who gets hurt? Just you? At 65 mph, your car isn't just going to slide to a straight and perfect stop. It's going to become a "pinball." I watched a tire, just a tire, come off a car at 65, roll across a median and bounce into an oncoming car. If I recall, it killed the driver.
"...but meep, you seem to confuse drafting with tailgaiting ..an important distinction if you're earnestly evaluating the content of those who are comfortable with the concept. "
And this is where we run into the plain truth that people have different talents, and some people are better drivers than others. Some people could probably do this much more safely than others, just as some can handle 95 mph more safely than others. Is 95 mph considered acceptable for everyone? No? It's not? Then I don't see why drafting could be seen as an "acceptable" practice for everyone. And you can't say that it's ok for me to do it and not you, because you base that on the whole "I can bend the rules for myself because I'm a better driver than..." That's the thinking that says "I can cut line because I'm in a bigger hurry than a stranger," or "I can speed in the parking lot because I can stop faster," or ...I'm allowed a privilege because I'm better than the next person."
"I still think it's mostly an emotional issue ... with very little facts or logic to support that this common practice is a danger to anyone."
Definently emotional. But what kind of facts do you need? Recall the incidents that lead to the addition of 3rd brake lights in cars? Whole bunch of folks driving close together on I-75 in the fog. Low visibility, just like following a truck. Several hundred cars rear-ended each other.
"...Little logic to support this" ???
I watched this happen: car was following a truck very closely. Without warning, truck changed lanes to avoid an accident ahead. The following vehicle didn't see until too late and plowed right in. We can argue that the truck probably should've slowed down, should've been paying better attn;, but still-- HE avoided the accident.
Here's some hard data.
It takes 0.15 seconds for sensory information to reach the brain. It takes 0.15 seconds for that command to reach the muscles for movement. There's processing time in the middle. If you're alert (driving is congnitive and not instinctual) let's say 0.5 seconds to process and make a decision, doesn't include a mirror check. That's pretty quick. You've lost 0.8 seconds before even reaching brake application.
at 65 mph, you're traveling 95 feet per second.
traveling at 2 car lengths, you've got 30 feet clearance
Assuming a 60-0 stopping distance of 160 feet, a semi slows 3.63 seconds to zero yielding a decel of: 24fps^2
Semi slams brakes. in 0.8 seconds he's drpped to 76 fps, and you've closed the gap by 8 feet by the time your foot first moves. you lose 0.2 seconds for foot travel and brake engagement.
He's down to 71.6 fps, you're still at 95fps, and you just lost another 4.3 (call it 4) feet to 18 feet clearance.
so now, he's stopping from 71.6 fps, at 24fps^2, you from 95 fps in an accord (117' 60-0 distance, 33.2 fps^2 decel rate).
semi to stop: takes 2.98s over 107' additional
accord to stop: takes 2.88s over 136' additional
Result: you will hit the semi 9 feet before coming to a stop, best case.
Me, I'd prefer to stay in control of my vehicle and stay [censored] away.
M
Please- someone define the distances for drafting. I'm imagining 1 car length, and that's where my arguements stem from. If we're talking about 3-4, that sounds like typical Atlanta beltway density where, BTW the accidents can get pretty gruesome but you can't avoid it--lots of folks on the road.
"-the truck stops more slowly than your car. All things being perfect, you'd never hit the truck."
driving conditions are never perfect. Are you a perfect driver? also requires follower to be perfectly attentive. Never glance away, pick up the cel, etc.
"-you aren't affecting the truck drivers ability to drive safely at all- he can't even see that area behind the truck. So it makes no difference at all whether you are there or not."
I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that for the sake of his day and humanity in general, he has a right to not wish to be in an accident. He's seen his share. It's formed his opinion, and he has a right to want to maintain safe practices. Pulling an injured or lifeless body from a car really changes your outlook on traffic accidents.
"-as for side drafting,"
I have no issue with side drafting as long as traffic isnt being blocked.
"It is more dangerous for the car to do either thing, but only for the car. If the driver is aware of the danger, seems fine to me. "
If you tangle with a semi, snap a steering rod and careen into another vehicle, who gets hurt? Just you? At 65 mph, your car isn't just going to slide to a straight and perfect stop. It's going to become a "pinball." I watched a tire, just a tire, come off a car at 65, roll across a median and bounce into an oncoming car. If I recall, it killed the driver.
"...but meep, you seem to confuse drafting with tailgaiting ..an important distinction if you're earnestly evaluating the content of those who are comfortable with the concept. "
And this is where we run into the plain truth that people have different talents, and some people are better drivers than others. Some people could probably do this much more safely than others, just as some can handle 95 mph more safely than others. Is 95 mph considered acceptable for everyone? No? It's not? Then I don't see why drafting could be seen as an "acceptable" practice for everyone. And you can't say that it's ok for me to do it and not you, because you base that on the whole "I can bend the rules for myself because I'm a better driver than..." That's the thinking that says "I can cut line because I'm in a bigger hurry than a stranger," or "I can speed in the parking lot because I can stop faster," or ...I'm allowed a privilege because I'm better than the next person."
"I still think it's mostly an emotional issue ... with very little facts or logic to support that this common practice is a danger to anyone."
Definently emotional. But what kind of facts do you need? Recall the incidents that lead to the addition of 3rd brake lights in cars? Whole bunch of folks driving close together on I-75 in the fog. Low visibility, just like following a truck. Several hundred cars rear-ended each other.
"...Little logic to support this" ???
I watched this happen: car was following a truck very closely. Without warning, truck changed lanes to avoid an accident ahead. The following vehicle didn't see until too late and plowed right in. We can argue that the truck probably should've slowed down, should've been paying better attn;, but still-- HE avoided the accident.
Here's some hard data.
It takes 0.15 seconds for sensory information to reach the brain. It takes 0.15 seconds for that command to reach the muscles for movement. There's processing time in the middle. If you're alert (driving is congnitive and not instinctual) let's say 0.5 seconds to process and make a decision, doesn't include a mirror check. That's pretty quick. You've lost 0.8 seconds before even reaching brake application.
at 65 mph, you're traveling 95 feet per second.
traveling at 2 car lengths, you've got 30 feet clearance
Assuming a 60-0 stopping distance of 160 feet, a semi slows 3.63 seconds to zero yielding a decel of: 24fps^2
Semi slams brakes. in 0.8 seconds he's drpped to 76 fps, and you've closed the gap by 8 feet by the time your foot first moves. you lose 0.2 seconds for foot travel and brake engagement.
He's down to 71.6 fps, you're still at 95fps, and you just lost another 4.3 (call it 4) feet to 18 feet clearance.
so now, he's stopping from 71.6 fps, at 24fps^2, you from 95 fps in an accord (117' 60-0 distance, 33.2 fps^2 decel rate).
semi to stop: takes 2.98s over 107' additional
accord to stop: takes 2.88s over 136' additional
Result: you will hit the semi 9 feet before coming to a stop, best case.
Me, I'd prefer to stay in control of my vehicle and stay [censored] away.
M
Originally Posted By: meep
"-as for side drafting,"
I have no issue with side drafting as long as traffic isnt being blocked.
Please read my post above about that if you havent yet. Its worth considering since it concerns the safety of yourself and possibly your family.
"-as for side drafting,"
I have no issue with side drafting as long as traffic isnt being blocked.
Please read my post above about that if you havent yet. Its worth considering since it concerns the safety of yourself and possibly your family.
Originally Posted By: leftlane
Originally Posted By: meep
"-as for side drafting,"
I have no issue with side drafting as long as traffic isnt being blocked.
Please read my post above about that if you havent yet. Its worth considering since it concerns the safety of yourself and possibly your family.
Yeah, not a huge fan of drafting. I've been in one wreck with a box truck where I unavoidably rear-ended it b/c I was following too close at 60 mph. Can I tell you that dust that they pack air bags in is pretty hard to breathe?
Originally Posted By: meep
"-as for side drafting,"
I have no issue with side drafting as long as traffic isnt being blocked.
Please read my post above about that if you havent yet. Its worth considering since it concerns the safety of yourself and possibly your family.
Yeah, not a huge fan of drafting. I've been in one wreck with a box truck where I unavoidably rear-ended it b/c I was following too close at 60 mph. Can I tell you that dust that they pack air bags in is pretty hard to breathe?
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