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#1157746 - 05/23/08 11:10 PM Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4
pickled Offline


Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 2098
Loc: The Rocky Mountains
Folks,

I can't talk much about what or when, but this is an interesting curve. If you know algebra substitution is your friend. Multiple UOA's per engine can give you powerful data...
[url=Popular CJ-4]CJ-4 Oil Reserve Alkalinity[/url]


Edited by pickled (05/23/08 11:16 PM)
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Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...

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#1158381 - 05/25/08 02:25 AM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
pickled Offline


Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 2098
Loc: The Rocky Mountains
FYI- there are 3 different vehicles of the same year and delivery date comprising this graph. Similar loading and routing make wear patterns understandable and consistent within the context of an entire fleet.


Edited by pickled (05/25/08 02:39 AM)
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Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...

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#1163452 - 06/01/08 09:31 AM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4513
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
That's cool. Thanks for posting. I notice that on BITOG when something good and technical gets posted, few people say anything about it. What's up with that?

The trend is linear in this data. The lowest TBN is approx. 4. Is that because 4 was the condemnation limit or is there some other reason?

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#1163571 - 06/01/08 01:42 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: JAG]
pickled Offline


Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 2098
Loc: The Rocky Mountains
Hey Jag,

Thanks for your encouragement. This last study we performed ended at TBN 4 because one of the vehicles developed a coolant leak and a second vehicle had an unquantified amount of a "Flying J" top-up oil added to it...this was the first time I ever heard of one of this company's drivers even checking the oil let alone adding some by themselves! In light of these external influences we pulled the plug on data collection. FYI- The third vehicle did stay within the current prediction equation confidence intervals down to TBN of 1.7. At that point the lubricant and full flow were changed. Take it easy, I think I'm going to go drain a transmission or something.
_________________________
Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...

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#1163595 - 06/01/08 02:27 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
bruce381 Offline


Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3324
Loc: Millbrae, CA
looks like you could go 18-20K or so.
bruce

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#1163741 - 06/01/08 07:21 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: bruce381]
pickled Offline


Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 2098
Loc: The Rocky Mountains
You nailed it bruce. The only problem that we have is that the CI-4+ oil (same brand name) interval (backed by good historical data) was 25,000 using the same quality of fuel and operating conditions. It was hard to break it to these guys that their old interval was allowing a bit more pain to be felt by the motor...oh well at least data doesn't usually lie.
_________________________
Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...

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#1163776 - 06/01/08 08:29 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
allan5oh Offline


Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 225
Loc: Winnipeg, mb
Do you find the lower sulfur content of ULSD slows down TBN erosion?

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#1163894 - 06/01/08 11:42 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: allan5oh]
pickled Offline


Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 2098
Loc: The Rocky Mountains
Hello Allan5oh,

We did notice that the switch to ULSD changed the slope of the line a bit on the CI-4+ oils. Where a typical class 8 from this group would normally intercept a TBN of 1.5 at 23,000 miles with a steady diet of 500 ppm diesel the new intercept was at 25,400 miles with ULSD. It would be interesting to run a class 8 with CJ-4 in the sump drinking down 500 ppm diesel and see how quickly it loses its alkalinity reserves. This certainly is interesting stuff to get to work with that's for sure!
_________________________
Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...

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#1164200 - 06/02/08 03:32 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
allan5oh Offline


Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 225
Loc: Winnipeg, mb
Only 10%? I expected a lot more.

Seems as though engines with EGR go through the TBN much faster.

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#1164237 - 06/02/08 04:53 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: allan5oh]
pickled Offline


Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 2098
Loc: The Rocky Mountains
Increased EGR in diesels really stomps the guts out of an oil! Non-EGR CAT engines comparatively were MUCH kinder to the oil then the Cummins ISM and ISX's were.
_________________________
Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...

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#1181879 - 06/29/08 12:13 AM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46539
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Great information - on one hand this is not unexpected, CJ-4 is a purpose build spec that is only partially reverse compatible. On the other hand, maybe some of the companies will start looking at more advanced additives (read: cost) to help retain TBN but not foul cats, particulate separation systems, etc.


Wow - I totally missed this thread before. I only saw it because it was linked in another CJ-4 thread.

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#1181902 - 06/29/08 12:43 AM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: Pablo]
pickled Offline


Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 2098
Loc: The Rocky Mountains
Thanks Pablo ! I hope that you are correct and the second generation of CJ-4 formulas step it up a little bit on the additive side. I'm sure our friends at Lubrizol would love to sell them the "good stuff". I'd sure like to post some other cool info for folks to check out, but the pesky confidentiality agreements I continuously have to sign are pretty limiting. It just bothers me that we were all sent the loud message..."No difference convert everything and don't think about it" and the field data says "It IS different". Oh well, in the end it makes for yet another interesting subject for us to kick around here on BITOG as other people just turn the key and go!
_________________________
Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...

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#1215844 - 08/14/08 09:47 AM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4513
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
pickled, have you been able to get any of the used oil TBN data for any 5W-40 synthetic CJ-4 oils? Thanks.

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#1215970 - 08/14/08 01:13 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: JAG]
pickled Offline


Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 2098
Loc: The Rocky Mountains
Not to any significant detail yet Jag...just one off stuff here and there. A lot of folks in fleets I work with are staying the course with dino cj-4 for a while because they don't have the cashflow to buy the even more expensive synthetic formulations. I did here of one operator of mine who is ready to try some Delo 5W40 vs. some of the Amsoil formulations. I need to get my data vampire into that project for sure. Will let you know if I see anything soon...if diesel prices continue to decline then there will be some folks back in the lubrication hunt. After talking with a few of my fleet guys they are saying that if diesel hits $3.65/gallon they are locking in a full year's supply that day!! We'll see if this price point ever materializes this year, but I thought that was pretty wild.
_________________________
Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...

Top
#1216027 - 08/14/08 02:17 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4513
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
Thanks for the reply pickled!

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#1216088 - 08/14/08 03:35 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: JAG]
TeeDub Offline


Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 752
Loc: NY
The fleet data I saw when Amsoil was field testing their DEO/5w-40 was that wear rates were comparable to AME/15w-40, but OCI's were reduced by 15%-20% with 500 ppm sulfur fuel.
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NYSOFMIND

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#1278087 - 11/09/08 01:46 AM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: TeeDub]
Extreme-Duty Offline


Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Schafflund, Germany
It's sad that this thread has died.

OK, TBN appears to reach its allowable minimum a little faster with the CJ-4 formular. But can anyone provide data on TAN build up and corrosive wear?
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Been using EVER-SEEZ and Neverseal on all my stuff - I got it for free!

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#1278553 - 11/09/08 05:28 PM Re: Reserve Alkalinity Loss Popular CJ-4 [Re: pickled]
D-Roc Offline


Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 1525
Loc: CFB Petawawa, Ontario
 Originally Posted By: pickled
Not to any significant detail yet Jag...just one off stuff here and there. A lot of folks in fleets I work with are staying the course with dino cj-4 for a while because they don't have the cashflow to buy the even more expensive synthetic formulations. I did here of one operator of mine who is ready to try some Delo 5W40 vs. some of the Amsoil formulations. I need to get my data vampire into that project for sure. Will let you know if I see anything soon...if diesel prices continue to decline then there will be some folks back in the lubrication hunt. After talking with a few of my fleet guys they are saying that if diesel hits $3.65/gallon they are locking in a full year's supply that day!! We'll see if this price point ever materializes this year, but I thought that was pretty wild.


Any feedback on that Delo 5W40 yet?
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