Shell H' UltraX 0W-30, '00 HondaS2000, 19800 km

[SpitfireS]

Wear metals not that bad.
Original visc = 9.6 cSt @ 100C
Fuel dilution is still present.
Could that be that I only drove for about 15-20 minutes before taking the sample?

How about the TAN?
Is this good or bad?
Will the oil last me 30k km next time with a filter change at 15k km?

Thanks for watching and I'm looking forward to comments.

 

[addyguy]

That TBN is awesome for that many miles on the oil! Lead is quite high, that is probably b/c of the fuel, as silicon isn't that high. Viscosity is good, though.

TBN indicated the oil woul most definetly make 30k kms, but Idon't what wear meatlas woud be like at that point...what's your 'comfort level'?

 

[SpitfireS]

Wear metals per 1000 km is low.. right?
Fe would get to 35-40ppm @ 30k. km if the "wear" stayed the same.
I'm comfortabel with that I guess.
Unless that Fe (or others) start to act like an abrasive at higher levels.

I'm using a K&N drop-in filter too.
So far that seems to do its job looking at the Si levels.

I would like some info on the TAN.

 

[FZ1]

Tbn seems high. Did you add top up oil or other products during the run?

 

[SpitfireS]

The oil was used for 18 months and during that time I used about 4-4.5 liters of make-up oil.
5 weeks before the sample was taken I topped it up (with about 200ml).
No other products.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
The oil was used for 18 months and during that time I used about 4-4.5 liters of make-up oil.
5 weeks before the sample was taken I topped it up (with about 200ml).
No other products.


OK extended drain, but wow that's a lot of top up oil. The engine holds about 5 liters. It does explain the boosted TBN. TAN seems quite high for the TBN as well.

 

[pickled]

What size sump is on an S2000? It is hard to interpret a one off UOA without previous historical data, but wear metals on a ppm/1000 km basis look fine and the viscosity looks great. Sounds like a lot of make up oil though...are you pounding the highways at 130km/h+ or is this product known for volatility? Based on your TAN I would say there was some nitration or sulfonation of the oil, but for 18 months of sump time everything else considered the oil took the extended drain well. An oxidation number would have been interesting to see even with all that make up oil in the mix. TAN is a great measure and when you have multiple UOA's over an OCI you can plot out where the TBN and TAN cross. Typically we like to change the oil before this happens.

 

[JAG]

The flashpoint method is the closed cup method which gives lower numbers than the open cup method used by some other labs. 160C is 320F which shows some fuel present...not great but not terrible.

Lead is high for the mileage. It seems out of place considering the other wear metals are fine.

The TAN is getting up there but the TBN is must higher than it which is a good sign. I don't know if the TAN is too high. It helps to know the starting TAN.

I don't trust K&N air filters. I would use a Honda filter. I also wouldn't trust looking at the silicon to gauge how well the filter is working. Lead is high...is it from dirt? I don't know but IMO it's not worth gambling with a rock catcher K&N filter.

The amount of oil consumption is really high! What's up with that? Has it always been like that and did it vary with what oil you've used?

 

[pickled]

I don't know but IMO it's not worth gambling with a rock catcher K&N filter.

I love that, "rock catcher"...more like the "Cow Catcher" on the front of a train. Get the man an EA Air filter!!

 

[SpitfireS]

Thanks for all the replys.
Here's a link to a UOA I did before this one:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=803874#Post803874
Same lab.
Both show lowered flashpoint.

The 9000 rpm redline engine in the S2000 is known for using oil, especially the early model years.
Most of them use oil because (IMO) the oil was changed too soon when new and synthetics were used too soon, the manual cleary states to use dino (factory fill) for the first regular schedule OCI, being 10k km.
I bought mine with 80k on the clock, 3rd owner so I don't know how it was treated.

TBN of the 0W-40 was high, 10.xx, probably also due to make-up oil.
Oil usage dropped but the OCI almost doubled, looking at it that way the make-up oil isn't that bad.

Its worse to have no oil

The Pb levels are too high?
Pb = crankshaft & piston rod bearings right?
Compared to the 0W-40 (per 1000 km) its about 3 times as high.
Same K&N was used with the 0W-40.

Maybe I should stick to 15k km OCI's

 

[FZ1]

That's what I thought. Top up oil replenishes the additives. I add a few ounces every 3 or four months whether it needs it or not. Lol. I do feel a bit better about my 1 year and 6-7k oci after seeing this run.

 

[AEHaas]

I am not happy with Shell Helix Ultra. Used oil analysis shows that this oil thins faster than many others. Ferrari cars that use this oil consume a liter every 500 - 1,000 miles. Many have changed to 0W-40 Mobil 1 instead of the 5W-40 Helix Ultra with little or no more oil consumption after the change.

Flash points are among the lowest for this Shell oil. Even the 10W-60 specified for my Enzo has a flash point of only 210 C. This is very low and contributed to fast evaporation. Since using 0W-30 Castrol Syntec European Formula I had no oil consumption. Now, after a few hundred miles of using Renewable Lubricants Incorporated 0W-30 I also have no oil consumption.

My old Ferrari Maranello 575 went through a liter of the OEM Helix in 500 miles. After using 0W-30 and then 0W-20 Mobil 1 there was no more oil loss over the 9,000 miles I put on the car. I would consider using a different oil brand for your car.

I am worried about the TAN. There is some acid that is not being neutralized. Corrosive wear is occuring for sure. And you should get a new high quality paper air filter. A large number of small silicon partilces may give you the same reading as a small number of large particles on a UOA. Dirt is the number ONE cause of wear in an engine.

aehaas

 

[INDYMAC]

This is a tough one to interpret Spitfire. Is it possible financially for you to do a Dyson Analysis from Netherlands once?

My thoughts:

-4 to 5 litres make-up oil is a complete transfusion in the F20C1...do you have Krank Vents or a catch can? Have you thought about doing an Auto-Rx treatment to clean up the ring packs? I know you do a lot of your own maintenance, so I assume your car is at a high tune level. Has it shown any indication of low compression, blowby?

-Have you ever used the recommended 10W-30 oils of any variety? How did it compare to the thinner 0W-30?

-I know that Fe is linear wrt mileage, but I'm not sure about the other wear metals, especially Pb. I think this may be caused by the fuel/additives. Do they use Techron in the fuel over there? Maybe switching brands of fuel will result in lower Pb wear if dilution can't be lowered.

-I can't tell anything from the report about oil filter efficiency (I don't know what that scale is), so I assume everything is allright. The K&N seems to be catching a lot of dirt. It has on my UOA's too.

-Extending OCI with this oil may be OK, but I'm old school conservative...especially with fuel dilution issues. Motor Oil is cheap enough for me to go with 4-5K miles or 1 year in my S2000. After I'm done with an ARX treatment with cheap 10W-30 dino, I'll be trying LE 8130 or Schaeffers #703. I'm pretty impressed with the O'Reillys dino right now though. The ARX might have something to do with that though!

 

[Primus]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I am not happy with Shell Helix Ultra. Used oil analysis shows that this oil thins faster than many others. Ferrari cars that use this oil consume a liter every 500 - 1,000 miles. Many have changed to 0W-40 Mobil 1 instead of the 5W-40 Helix Ultra with little or no more oil consumption after the change.


Never heard somebody was using 0W-30 type A1/A5/B1/B5 in S2000. As I understand such oil it is not suitable for this engine. So, the problem is not in Shell oil, but in owner's misuse. Besides, the reference to other Shell oils and their behaviour in specific engines has nothing to do with this case, so it cannot serve a guidance. As for F.P. values in PDS, think their importance is often overestimated when it concerns an oil consumption. If engine does not consume oil, most like it will consume oil neither with 230 C, nor with 210 C. If it consumes, then different oils may give different rate, but again there are other factors that have a higher impact on oil consumption than just initial F.P. Besides, PSD often gives wrong numbers, so I would not fully rely on them for a judgment.

Less will be experiments, less will be oil consumption, other issues and concerns.

 

[slalom44]

Quote:
Never heard somebody was using 0W-30 type A1/A5/B1/B5 in S2000. As I understand such oil it is not suitable for this engine. So, the problem is not in Shell oil, but in owner's misuse.

I use 0W-30, and many others of us do as well, with great results. Your opinion makes no sense, since 0W- does not define an oil's viscosity at operating temperature.

Personally, I think this is a pretty good UOA. Considering the miles, wear is not bad. The TBN is high, but that's probably attributed to using Shell Helix Ultra and your make-up oil.

I also don't think your oil consumption is out-of-line. The F20C engine consumes oil, especially if you spend a lot of time at the higher RPMs. And that would explain some of your fuel dilution as well. This engine runs rich when in VTEC.

IMO you shouldn't change anything.

 

[SpitfireS]

Originally Posted By: AEHaas
I am not happy with Shell Helix Ultra. Used oil analysis shows that this oil thins faster than many others. - The original visc. = 9.6 cSt @100c so this oil did not shear down at all - Ferrari cars that use this oil consume a liter every 500 - 1,000 miles. Many have changed to 0W-40 Mobil 1 instead of the 5W-40 Helix Ultra with little or no more oil consumption after the change.

Flash points are among the lowest for this Shell oil. Even the 10W-60 specified for my Enzo has a flash point of only 210 C. This is very low and contributed to fast evaporation. Since using 0W-30 Castrol Syntec European Formula I had no oil consumption. Now, after a few hundred miles of using Renewable Lubricants Incorporated 0W-30 I also have no oil consumption.
- The oil consumption rate this UOA, being 1 liter every 4400 km, with this engine isn't that bad actually -


My old Ferrari Maranello 575 went through a liter of the OEM Helix in 500 miles. After using 0W-30 and then 0W-20 Mobil 1 there was no more oil loss over the 9,000 miles I put on the car. I would consider using a different oil brand for your car.

I am worried about the TAN. - Where am I able to find what TAN should be after those km's? Another thing is that the Helix Ultra X is OEM Volkswagen Pumpduse Diesel engine oil, maybe that has something to do with it. The Shell specs on the other hand say it petrol/diesel engine oil. No reservations or anything. - There is some acid that is not being neutralized. Corrosive wear is occuring for sure. And you should get a new high quality paper air filter.- I'll consider it, even though the ppm of Si stayed the same when looking at the other UOA where I linked to - A large number of small silicon partilces may give you the same reading as a small number of large particles on a UOA. Dirt is the number ONE cause of wear in an engine.

aehaas

 

[SpitfireS]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
This is a tough one to interpret Spitfire. Is it possible financially for you to do a Dyson Analysis from Netherlands once?
Well... sending oil overseas... Ask Pablo IF thats easy.. Haha..
This UOA is not cheap at all, even in Euro's

My thoughts:

-4 to 5 litres make-up oil is a complete transfusion in the F20C1...do you have Krank Vents or a catch can? Yes I have KrankVents and they reduced oil consumption about 50% They also stop air flow through the crank case so IF the K&N doesn't work that well hardly any bad filtered air flows through the crank case. Have you thought about doing an Auto-Rx treatment to clean up the ring packs? I know you do a lot of your own maintenance, so I assume your car is at a high tune level. Has it shown any indication of low compression, blowby?As far as I know syn oil have always been used, maybe too soon it its life. Running the engine at idle without the oil filler cap doesn't produce a lot of "air flow", if you know what I mean

-Have you ever used the recommended 10W-30 oils of any variety? How did it compare to the thinner 0W-30?
Just Shell 0W-40, UOA linked to above.

-I know that Fe is linear wrt mileage, but I'm not sure about the other wear metals, especially Pb. I think this may be caused by the fuel/additives. Do they use Techron in the fuel over there? Maybe switching brands of fuel will result in lower Pb wear if dilution can't be lowered.
Mostly I'm using BP Ultimate 98, but fuel composition is different in every country. Pb levels had me worried for a while, per 1000km its 0.8, not ideal I agree but this engine has run 145000 km and with this oil I did 2 track days as well = 80 leaps (4,5 km) between 5500 and 9000 rpm.

-I can't tell anything from the report about oil filter efficiency (I don't know what that scale is), so I assume everything is allright. The K&N seems to be catching a lot of dirt. It has on my UOA's too.

-Extending OCI with this oil may be OK, but I'm old school conservative...especially with fuel dilution issues. Motor Oil is cheap enough for me to go with 4-5K miles or 1 year in my S2000. After I'm done with an ARX treatment with cheap 10W-30 dino, I'll be trying LE 8130 or Schaeffers #703. I'm pretty impressed with the O'Reillys dino right now though. The ARX might have something to do with that though!
I would like a single grade 30 weight, maybe Amsoil 10W-30, but Fe was pretty low and maybe I'm getting top-end wear and low Pb..
This was the second UOA I think I'm going to use the same oil for now and do a 3rd UOA to confirm what happened here.

 

[SpitfireS]

Originally Posted By: slalom44
Quote:
Never heard somebody was using 0W-30 type A1/A5/B1/B5 in S2000. As I understand such oil it is not suitable for this engine. So, the problem is not in Shell oil, but in owner's misuse.

I use 0W-30, and many others of us do as well, with great results. Your opinion makes no sense, since 0W- does not define an oil's viscosity at operating temperature.
Shell does mention that this oil is not for "every engine" due to its low viscosity, but ACEA A5/B5 dictates a HTHS of minimal 2.9 mPa.s, that should be enough for the F20C2 I hope.

Personally, I think this is a pretty good UOA. Considering the miles, wear is not bad. The TBN is high, but that's probably attributed to using Shell Helix Ultra and your make-up oil.
If Pb would have been 10 or 8 this would have been very good IMO (apart from maybe TAN)... now is 8ppm extra going to worrie me?... yes a little but not enough for now

I also don't think your oil consumption is out-of-line. The F20C engine consumes oil, especially if you spend a lot of time at the higher RPMs. And that would explain some of your fuel dilution as well. This engine runs rich when in VTEC.

IMO you shouldn't change anything.

 

[Primus]

Originally Posted By: slalom44
I use 0W-30, and many others of us do as well, with great results. Your opinion makes no sense, since 0W- does not define an oil's viscosity at operating temperature. ....

... I also don't think your oil consumption is out-of-line. The F20C engine consumes oil, especially if you spend a lot of time at the higher RPMs. And that would explain some of your fuel dilution as well. This engine runs rich when in VTEC.


Well, sorry not to be exact and clear. When saying I never heard somebody was using 0W-30 type A1/A5/B1/B5 in S2000 I was limited by the info from my area contacts, including authorized dealers, and a couple of authorized dealers in Germany I have visited. And I am really surprised to hear somebody is using 0W-30 A1/A5/B1/B5 in this engine and, besides, with great results. May be, you are using A3/B3 oil ? Then I would understand. But if you mean 3-5 l of top up oil as great results, then obviously we have different criterias for great results. I know S2000 owners which never complainted about an oil consumption despite their over-enthusiastic driving style. I still have Prelude 2.2 VTEC (H22A2). It has quite similar engine though it's easier on oil than S2000. However, according to posts at BITOG and other forums many owners say about a high oil consumtion and think it's normal. It's based on a theory of a specific engine. But I wonder why my Prelude consumes relatively a small amount, say, 0.3-0.6l per 7500 km ?

 

[slalom44]

It's very possible that your Pb is coming from something besides your bearings. IIRC, the bearings in the F20C are primarily copper, with a little Pb and possibly some Tin. The Cu/Pb ratio that you're showing is way out in left field. Is it possible that you're getting some leaded gas?

Primus - I'm using Amsoil 0W-30, and all of my UOAs have been with the Series 2000 version. SpitfireS, Indymac and I hang around S2KI.com, where there's pleny of discussion on oil consumption. It is generally recognized that oil consumption in excess of 1 quart per 1000 miles is considered excessive with the F20C engine, but consumption in the 3000+ range per quart is considered good. You can't compare the oil consumption in the F20C engine with any other engine.