New Delvac-1 (and M-1 TDT) formula... improvement?

[AMG Dave]

I'm reeeeaaaally getting tired of Mobil's monkeying with their product line. The Delvac-1 formula is now "Delvac-1 ESP", with a CJ-4 rating. Click here for a photo of the jug and some more info. And, the Mobil-1 5W-40 "Turbo Diesel Truck" oil has also changed, it's got a spiffy new label on the bottle, and is also CJ-4 rated. Click here to see Mobil's website info, or click here for the data sheet.

I called Mobil and asked if the two were the same. Answer: No. They are NOT the same formula. The tech was unhelpful and didn't elaborate. And at first he didn't even know the M-1 TDT was reformulated, I had to convince him that I was looking at a new bottle with new ratings! D'oh!

Anyway, up until recently, the M-1 TDT oil was identical to the (original) Delvac-1 oil... same formula, same oil, same CI-4 rating, different bottle. But that is no longer the case. If you are wondering what "ESP" stands for, it's "Emissions System Protection", where they have removed (or reduced) certain additives from the oil. Click here for more details. FWIW, I don't plan to use any ESP oils in my older (80's and 90's) engines.

Just curious, does anyone know exactly what changed with the CJ-4 formula? Specifically, which additives were increased, reduced, added, or removed? The data sheet indicates that the phosphorus levels dropped (click here for the Jan-2007 spec sheet, click here for the current Dec-2007 spec sheet.) But that's about all I can find.

 

[buster]

Dave, Mobil's customer support/service is so bad anymore I have no idea what they are doing. The only guy at Mobil tech support that seems to have a clue is Matt. They continuously convolute their product line.

I don't think M1 SUV is the same as D1 anymore. Completely different oil but may share some of the same chemistry. Who knows...

 

[MGregoir]

Delvac 1 ESP is the new formula CJ-4 oil, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck is identical to the previous formulation of Delvac 1, but I recall Mobil saying somewhere that TDT is going to be updated to match Delvac 1 ESP in the near future, at which point I imagine it will just be renamed Delvac 1.

In CJ-4 oils, phosphorous was cut back from 1400 ppm to 1200 ppm and sulfated ash content was limited to 1%, as well as improvements in oxidation control, soot thickening and deposit control. They upped the standard for the oil, and made it harder to achieve by limiting content of certain additives that were the most cost effective way of achieving some of those goals.

Basically, I think TDT is the old Delvac 1 still because it is less expensive to make and most consumers are really not on the up-and-up for CJ-4 oils yet, either requiring them in large quantity or seeking them out. It makes more sense to have Delvac 1 ESP as their premium product for newer engines that big fleets buy primarily, and then have the less expensive M1 TDT for consumers in box stores who generally only need 3-4 gallon quantities.

 

[JAG]

Looks like for the Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40:
Phosphorous went from 1300 ppm to 1200 ppm
TBN from 12 to 10.7
Flash point from 226 C to 235 C
Sulfated ash from 1.35% to 1.0%
Viscosity index from 151 to 155

These properties are the tip of the iceberg and can't be used to say which one is better. Clearly and as expected there is a reduction in total weight of organo-metallic additives. There's more info on the web about the new M1/D1 CJ-4 oils. I recall that part of the change is an increase in moly and boron and decrease in calcium, magnesium, phosphorous. There are many types of each of those additives so it's not necessarily an apple to apple comparison to just compare changes. The ashless additive changes won't be known to us unless an industry-insider tells us. This is a critical and mostly invisible part of the oil. Finally, there is the un-predictable mutual dependence of everything in the oil...some symbiosis, some antagonism, with the net result being??? I expect the new version to be better overal in most diesel and gas engines because I think CJ-4 is in general an improvement over CI-4+.

 

[Tornado Red]

We speculated about this over at TDI Club a few weeks ago. The spec sheet for the new Delvac 1 says that it's really designed to protect some heavy-duty emissions equipment. OTOH, the new TDT is optimized for systems that only have EGR.

I suspect that the Delvac will cost considerably more, because the additive package will be a lot more sophisticated. But for most light-duty diesel owners, the TDT will be just fine. When I run out of the CI-4+ stuff, I'll be switching to the TDT CJ-4.

 

[lkchris]

ESP = Emissions Systems Protection

Diesel particulate filters cannot tolerate ash from oil, hence the new formulations.

Oil is seldom made for yesterday's cars, just today's.

Mercedes has sticker under hood warning to not add ANY QUANTITY of non-ESP oil.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
I am awaiting some EM data on the field performance of Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40. If it is not marked as "Corporate in confidence" I will be presenting it on here

I mentioned this in an earlier Thread some four weeks ago

I can say with confidence that it has performed better than the previous version of Delvac 1 5W-40

I have been a Commercial user of this product for about 10 years and have been familier with it for nearly 20 years. Each API mandated formulation change to Delvac 1 has resulted in a BETTER performing product being marketed

One must remember that this lubricant is primarily a Commercial use product. As such it must perform for CAT (sold by them as their own) DD, Cummins, Mack and etc as it goes into mixed Brand fleets - and it must have their Approvals on release

When I first joined BITOG and indicated I was using this in a variety of expensive petrol engines (as well as in my Class 8 trucks) and had been for some years I was roundly criticised by all and sundry. I still use it of course and will continue to use the CJ-4 version too - with great confidence!

 

[pickled]

Hello Doug,

I am quite anxious to see how their CJ-4 variant performs in fleet testing. Your data will be an outstanding contribution and I, for one, am looking forward to it!

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Ikchris - Sorry but I missed your comment:

"Oil is seldom made for yesterday's cars, just today's."

Whilst this can be argued in the case of PCMOs (for cars) it is NOT the case with "most" HDEOs such as Delvac 1 5W-40

High profile HDEOs from the major Oil Companies are typically used in Fleets with engines that may be >30 years or so old - as well as new engine families. Fleet Owners commonly seek a lubricant that will safely embrace the majority of engines within their Fleet

 

[LargeCarManX2]

Doug,

Some of the new formulations of other brands of CJ-4 oils are sounding like they are getting away from extended oil change claims. They are staying with the OEM reccomended OCI. Do you think this is a brand issue or is it a CJ-4 issue?....meaning CJ-4 oils will not do extended drains like the oil classifications of CI formulations use too?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
LargeCarManX2 - I think it is now a "lubricant" and "engine" issue. Engine Manufacturers typically do NOT want extended drains and their influence on the API (as it is with Euro makers and ACEA) on lubricant perfomance will see a realignment with realistic expectations. IMHO some CJ-4 lubricants may NOT do extended OCIs in some engine families!

The Approval of lubricants by Manufacturers will see a resolving of some Oil Makers unrealistic claims/expectations (Amsoil for instance was mentioned in here as doing 400k mile OCIs in one unconfirmed instance) and OCIs being more aligned to the technologies used

The high TBN of previous HDEOs often brought a SA problem with them due to additive composition. These (engine maker) requirements have been taken on board and OCIs will eventually catch up with those of the major Euro engine makers IMHO

Delvac 1 5W-40 has always been an excellent soot control lubricant (most Delvac HDEOs are) and its durability in high speed heavy diesel engines (its designed application) has been understated

That said and in my experience, based on a 15kkms OCI from the engine maker;
I could only get 20-25kkms by using a mineral HDEO and UOAs
A constantly developed semi-synthetic HDEO enabled that to get up to around 45-50kkms using UOAs

With both the mineral and semi-synthetic lubricants, viscosity increase was a major condemnation factor

Delvac 1 5W-40 enabled an average of 90kkms in all of my engines except local PuD prime movers. A high of 130kkms was achieved - UOAs were always used
PuD engines had annual OCs at around 40kkms - the lubricant needed to be changed at this point

With Delvac 1 5W-40 a centrifuge oil cleaner was used and both FF filters were always free of any residue at OC point
Later SS 25micron FF filters were installed as the centrifuge rendered the FF filters to be simply another "barrier"

In all cases the condemnation point was either of the Fe level (150ppm) or the Soot (3.5%) being reached. The lubricant was in great shape in all other areas such as viscosity and etc.
In the case of Delvac 1 5W-40 at 130kkms the soot level was at 5% and Fe at around 160ppm. TBN was about 3.5 and TAN about 5 from memory

Anybody contemplating extending OCIs should use regular UOAs as the best medium of control - and TBN, TAN and PQ Index readings as factors along with the engine makers limits for Fe, Copper, Soot, Lead and the other "contaminants" too

My information is that the latest ESP version of Delvac 1 5W-40 is perfoming at a better level than the version it replaced. I simply cannot confirm it on here but I believe its ability for extended OCIs has been maintained when used according to its Approvals

I first used Delvac 1 5W-40 as a CF-4 lubricant. Each reformulation has been better than its predecessor in my practical experience over many years

I hope this is of some interest

 

[tdi-rick]

Originally Posted By: LargeCarManX2
Doug,

Some of the new formulations of other brands of CJ-4 oils are sounding like they are getting away from extended oil change claims. They are staying with the OEM reccomended OCI. Do you think this is a brand issue or is it a CJ-4 issue?....meaning CJ-4 oils will not do extended drains like the oil classifications of CI formulations use too?


I doubt that as traditionally Delvac 1 also meets the relevant ACEA specs (E2/4/6/7) and the Euro truck manufacturers such as Iveco's engines with Selective Catalyst Reduction are now rumoured to be specifying up to 150,000km drain intervals on their '08 engines, at least in Europe, although one could say that is an OEM recommended OCI !

 

[OilGuy]

Originally Posted By: LargeCarManX2
Doug,

Some of the new formulations of other brands of CJ-4 oils are sounding like they are getting away from extended oil change claims. They are staying with the OEM reccomended OCI. Do you think this is a brand issue or is it a CJ-4 issue?....meaning CJ-4 oils will not do extended drains like the oil classifications of CI formulations use too?


It all depends on the formulation. If you are using a bare minimum CJ-4 add pack, the capability will be quite different from an oil that truly exceeds CJ-4 requirements.

In regards to the post topic, Mobil highlights how their conventional Mobil Delvac oil compares to CJ-4 minimum hurdles here (pg 14 of 16). I would suspect that Mobil Delvac 1 ESP is even more robust than Mobil Delvac 1300 Super.
http://mobildelvac.com/usa-english/files/Mobil_Delvac_1300_Super_brochure.pdf

 

[bmwtechguy]

I just want to comment on one person's experience with the CJ4 Delvac 15W-40. My friend has an 08 Duramax 3500 and tows heavily every day cross-country. He stopped using synthetic oil because he was not able to get enough miles safely from the CJ oil to warrant the additional cost (amsoil 5W-40). He used regular CJ4 delvac first and was very pleased with the results. His viscosity and other readings were very good. Next oil change he used CJ4 Rotella and found that he was consuming oil at about 1 quart per 2000 miles. He ran it for another oil change and same thing. He then swtched back to the Delvac and his consumption dropped back down to nil. I was under the impression that the Rotella was really good, but perhaps it is just not the oil for his engine. What do you think?

BTW, thank you Doug and others for your input so far. Keep it coming!

 

[-SyN-]

The reason above me is why I will never use rotella in my personal PSD. The company I work for has 10- 3/4 ton & 8- 1 ton
pickups for our supervisors. They log many miles each day, mostly highway miles and many miles down dirt roads-> slower speeds. Also idleing on location for along period of time.

Our Shop mechanic{34yrs at it.} has always swore by rotella. He has good relations with the companies supplier, in which he gets the drums at a great discount. All these trucks are 07 and 08 models. Some Chevy and Ford, 4 new Goats just arrived. All of the trucks seemed to just drink the rotella. He was going through an ungodly amount of oil ea month-Makeup oil between oil changes. ALL the chevys has at least been through 1 set of injectors-{not blaming rotella}. After 2yrs of talking to this mechanic about M1 Delvac, I finally convinced him to switch over last yr. Now he couldn't get the Delvac 15W-40 for the same price per drum--BUT-Just cutting the oil consumption alone, made up the difference the first month.

Each truck runs for 5K miles between oil changes. He told me he was going through a drum a month with the rotella, just on makeup oil with the M1 Delvac 15W40 over the last yr, he {averaged} about a 1/4 of a drum ea month in makeup oil. Some months a bit more. Even the drivers of all these trucks has made comments about the switch. None have been negitive.

Most of these trucks are driven 200 to 600 miles daily.--Everyday. The mechanic is slowly switching out our pump trucks and Transports to Delvac as well.

I'm by no means saying rotella is a low quality oil! Many UOA has proven it to be a top grade oil. I just believe M1 Delvac is a more robust oil with a better additive package. I use M1 TDT 5W-40 in my 01 F250 with 266k miles on her, and the 7.3L motor really seems to perform well with it.-->10K mile OCI-no bypass->yet.

Same as BMW-->Thanks Doug for all your knowledge and imput.

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: -SyN-
I'm by no means saying rotella is a low quality oil! Many UOA has proven it to be a top grade oil. I just believe M1 Delvac is a more robust oil with a better additive package. I use M1 TDT 5W-40 in my 01 F250 with 266k miles on her, and the 7.3L motor really seems to perform well with it.-->10K mile OCI-no bypass->yet.

It's the same with the VW TDIs... Rotella 5w40 is an adequate oil, in fact a really good oil. But Mobil Delvac/M1 Turbo Diesel Truck is a great oil. It costs a little more, but it's worth it IMO.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
I have been fortunate over some several decades to use various HD lubricants in many engine families and to be deeply involved in the development of some with their manufacturer

The "sleeper" amongst the modern HDEO "mixed fleet" mineral 15W-40 range is Delvac 1300 15W-40. It is truely an excellent product with a great history of development going back some decades!

Many years ago in a direct line comparison in heavy earthmoving equipment (scrapers, dozers, loaders etc) and heavy trucks (dump and road) used in the most arduous of conditions, Delvac HD lubricants were the stars. This was in direct comparison with the equivalents from Shell, Caltex and Castrol of the time. I have never forgotten this

 

[HM12460]

doug, thank you for your comments. i work at a large paper mill here in michigan and we've used mobil delvac 1300 and delvac 1 both over the years in our off road heavy equipment with stellar results. i'd like to use it in my own personal vehicles (in my signature) as well, plus my john deere diesel tractors, the old ladies late model buick w/ the 3100 engine, and all of my lawn and garden tractors. do you have any experience or knowledge concerning the suitability of delvac 1 in light duty trucks, cars etc... it's a lot easier to stock 1 grade of oil than 3 or 4.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
HM12460 - Both Delvac 1300 15W-40 and Delvac 1 5W-40 are "mixed fleet" lubricants and they can be used where the API/ACEA Quality categories (B3/B4), the engine Manufacturer's Approvals and the viscosities are compatible

I have used both in petrol engines for many years - a small "snapshot" follows;

Porsche V8
Porsche M996 flat-six
Porsche flat-six air cooled (only 1300)
MB late series petrol and diesel engines
MB 5cyl diesel engines (old series)
GM V8 and V6 engines (1990 to present)
Toyota RAV4, Hilux and etc
Isuzu Utes - petrol & diesel
Mazda 2.5ltr diesel Ute
Hyundai Excel, Sonata
Small B&S engines - push & rideon (Husky rideon B&S 17hp used on large property in >40C heat and up to 8hrs in one day - engine now has 280hrs)
Stationary engines (reefer plants) - Kubota, Isuzu and Yanmar
and out to 3000hr OCIs
And many others including motorcycles!

UOAs from my V8 (10) and M996 (1) Porsche engines are archived in this Forum. Many V8 Porsche owners around the World use Delvac 1 5W-40 and many in "flat" engines too from >MY84 (both air and coolant cooled). It has a great reputation in twin turbo version engines too and some use it in place of M1 0W-40

I used Delvac 1 5W-40 for many years in my 500hp DD Series 60 DDEC1,2,3,4 engines (Class 8 Interstate trucks) and in some Cummins engines as well

I do not work for Mobil!

 

[Johnny]

"I do not work for Mobil!"

You should. Your the best spokesman they have.