Crane Cams Super Lube
- Thread starter Taylor
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I'm in love. Thick and loaded.
As I recall, wear can actually go up when zinc gets above ~3%. Wouldn't take much of this to get there, since you know guys will be dumping in the whole bottle.
Man, that is alot of zinc/phosphorus. I have read that you only need 12-1400 ppm of zinc per quart for a performance flat tappet cam. More than this can cause wear. Pablo or anyone, how much should one add to say 5 1/2 quarts of an oil that has approx. 800 ppm of zinc already.
Like I said 0.1 oz/qt should raise zinc right under 400 ppm. That being said I would use .55 oz's to raise 5.5 qt's 400 ppm. And 0.15 oz/qt should raise zinc about 600 ppm so at 5.5 qt's I would use .825 oz's total. This is assuming you want your oil around 1200-1400 ppm Zn.
Isn't this stuff for camshaft break in only in a new or rebuilt engine? After the 1st 1/2 hour or so your supposed to drain the oil and run regular oil.
Originally Posted By: mazdarx7
is the voa wrong?
Yes, I think this VOA is wrong by a factor of 10. That is assuming they are giving the result in parts per million (ppm)
If you do the ratios then one 8oz bottle added to 6 quarts of oil will raise the ZDDP level 5300ppm.
I.e. 8oz ÷ 192oz x 127480ppm = 5300ppm
is the voa wrong?
Yes, I think this VOA is wrong by a factor of 10. That is assuming they are giving the result in parts per million (ppm)
If you do the ratios then one 8oz bottle added to 6 quarts of oil will raise the ZDDP level 5300ppm.
I.e. 8oz ÷ 192oz x 127480ppm = 5300ppm
You guys are mixing up Zn vs. ZDDP, in at least 3 posts.
About 10% of the molecular weight of ZDDP is zinc, by weight.
So an oil that has 1000ppm Zn, or 0.1% Zn, by weight, is about 1% ZDDP, by weight. The precise ratio depends on the size of the alkyl side chains.
I have a reference that excessive levels of Zn/P/ZDDP can cause tappet or camshaft excessive wear. The excess wear seems to start at 1500-2000ppm Zn or P, roughly, from what i've read.
I also have an SAE article "How Much ZDDP is Enough?"
For broken-in engines without excessive valve spring pressure, the consensus of the article is that 500-800ppm P is enough.
It may be off by a factor of 10 since the figures would imply the ZDDP concentration is greater than 1 million ppm!!!
Charlie
About 10% of the molecular weight of ZDDP is zinc, by weight.
So an oil that has 1000ppm Zn, or 0.1% Zn, by weight, is about 1% ZDDP, by weight. The precise ratio depends on the size of the alkyl side chains.
I have a reference that excessive levels of Zn/P/ZDDP can cause tappet or camshaft excessive wear. The excess wear seems to start at 1500-2000ppm Zn or P, roughly, from what i've read.
I also have an SAE article "How Much ZDDP is Enough?"
For broken-in engines without excessive valve spring pressure, the consensus of the article is that 500-800ppm P is enough.
It may be off by a factor of 10 since the figures would imply the ZDDP concentration is greater than 1 million ppm!!!
Charlie
If that is the case why do most OAs that I have seen quote Zinc in ppm but this one you are saying is quoting ZDDP in ppm?
Why are Mobile putting too much ZDDP in their motorcycle oils. Their MX4T and V-Twin have about 1800ppm Zn? Quite a few other motorcycle oils have over 1500ppm. Maybe the engineers that designed the additive package haven't read that article you have.
You last sentence does not make sense.
Why are Mobile putting too much ZDDP in their motorcycle oils. Their MX4T and V-Twin have about 1800ppm Zn? Quite a few other motorcycle oils have over 1500ppm. Maybe the engineers that designed the additive package haven't read that article you have.
You last sentence does not make sense.
No, I'm not saying the analysis is quoting ZDDP rather than elemental zinc. However, if it is quoting elemental zinc then ZDDP concentration would be >1 million ppm, a physical impossibility. So somehow there must be an error. Unless the carbon # of the alkyl groups is 3 or less instead of the usual 6-8.
As far as SAE Technical Article 2004-01-2986 is concerned, it applies to car and truck engines. Motorcycles were not discussed. Wouldn't you agree there is a difference between engines that are supposed to last 5-30 thousand hours at 1500-4000 rpm on the one hand, and engines designed to last 1-2000hrs before overhaul at 5-9000 rpm on the other hand?
I only have two references I can quote re ZDDP optimum concentrations, the other being p. 211 of "Automotive Lubricants Reference Book".
Surely it isn't coincidence that nobody makes an automotive lube oil with >1500ppm Zn, other than racing and motorcycles.
Charlie
As far as SAE Technical Article 2004-01-2986 is concerned, it applies to car and truck engines. Motorcycles were not discussed. Wouldn't you agree there is a difference between engines that are supposed to last 5-30 thousand hours at 1500-4000 rpm on the one hand, and engines designed to last 1-2000hrs before overhaul at 5-9000 rpm on the other hand?
I only have two references I can quote re ZDDP optimum concentrations, the other being p. 211 of "Automotive Lubricants Reference Book".
Surely it isn't coincidence that nobody makes an automotive lube oil with >1500ppm Zn, other than racing and motorcycles.
Charlie
Yes, there are differences between engines, however the RPM yardstick IMO is not a accurate reference. Since a motorcycle engine is usually a fair bit more under square, bore stroke wise, mean piston speeds aren't so astronomically different to car engines.
Rotational speed is. Does that damage the oil more or is it more the loading pressure per unit area in the gear box for example? Cars have the benefit of a separate gearbox with gear oil which has loads more zinc in it from what I understand.
I am a beginner on this so can you tell me is the 1500ppm limit an engineered limit and not one dicatated by a standard?
Rotational speed is. Does that damage the oil more or is it more the loading pressure per unit area in the gear box for example? Cars have the benefit of a separate gearbox with gear oil which has loads more zinc in it from what I understand.
I am a beginner on this so can you tell me is the 1500ppm limit an engineered limit and not one dicatated by a standard?
From what bits and pieces I've been able to glean from the literature, no car/truck oils(excluding racing) are over 1500ppm Zn or P because there's no benefit to it and possibly a gradually increasing detriment which increases faster starting at 2000ppm. In other words an engineering limit.
The only standards are the fairly liberal CJ4/ACEA E9 standard of 1200ppm, tighter ACEA E6 of 800ppm and the SM ratings for lower viscosity fuel economy oils. And some Japanese specs for car oils. These are all quite new.
Otherwise oil blenders put in whatever they think will work the best. And I gather that ZDDP isn't particularly expensive, having been first made in the late 30s.
Actually if you look at analyses on gear oils they have almost no zinc. The phosphorus comes from other compounds. But in a MC they have to use ZDDP because it's the only antiwear compound compatible with the engine. It's not as "extreme pressure" effective as the AW compounds in gear oils.
So they use a lot.
Charlie
The only standards are the fairly liberal CJ4/ACEA E9 standard of 1200ppm, tighter ACEA E6 of 800ppm and the SM ratings for lower viscosity fuel economy oils. And some Japanese specs for car oils. These are all quite new.
Otherwise oil blenders put in whatever they think will work the best. And I gather that ZDDP isn't particularly expensive, having been first made in the late 30s.
Actually if you look at analyses on gear oils they have almost no zinc. The phosphorus comes from other compounds. But in a MC they have to use ZDDP because it's the only antiwear compound compatible with the engine. It's not as "extreme pressure" effective as the AW compounds in gear oils.
So they use a lot.
Charlie
I was looking into this subject myself and found some clarification on another thread at this site.
Looks as though Crane Cams Superlube part no. 99003-1 is virtually pure ZDDP according to this post.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=962271#Post962271
Looks as though Crane Cams Superlube part no. 99003-1 is virtually pure ZDDP according to this post.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=962271#Post962271
is this the stuff?
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