If GIII oils were so bad, GM/Mopar/Honda wouldn't have given it the OK.
Which are true(!) PAO (Class IV) Motor Oil brands?
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Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Oh, here's another great example of why you MUST have a ALL PAO oil. Awefull Castrol Syntec G-III base oil changed every 10k miles after 122k.
Look at how badly these types of oil perform! How could someone sleep at night without PURE PAO oil? How could my 10 year old Honda look just as clean on dog-dirt dino oil? Quick, PM Dr.Haas and warn him about dino oil in his new Ferraris and Lambos. Just explain to him how pure PAO is the only oil aceptable for use.
Oh, another G-III engine. Snap, it's a turbo to boot.
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." Oscar Wilde
Oh, here's another great example of why you MUST have a ALL PAO oil. Awefull Castrol Syntec G-III base oil changed every 10k miles after 122k.
Look at how badly these types of oil perform! How could someone sleep at night without PURE PAO oil? How could my 10 year old Honda look just as clean on dog-dirt dino oil? Quick, PM Dr.Haas and warn him about dino oil in his new Ferraris and Lambos. Just explain to him how pure PAO is the only oil aceptable for use.
Oh, another G-III engine. Snap, it's a turbo to boot.
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." Oscar Wilde
well, like the poster said, it's not about if the oil is good or not. Think of it as beer: There's beer and then there's pure beer made of hops, malt yeast and water. In Germany according to the old law the Reinheitsgebot (something like that..) you can't call anything else german beer.
Now that does not make Carlsberg a bad beer just because it is partly made of apples.
I think that it is nice to know those basic contents, eventhough the rest of the recipe is company IP and none of our business.
By the way I run both full PAO, semisynth and also mineral oil. Depends on application.
Now that does not make Carlsberg a bad beer just because it is partly made of apples.
I think that it is nice to know those basic contents, eventhough the rest of the recipe is company IP and none of our business.
By the way I run both full PAO, semisynth and also mineral oil. Depends on application.
I'm just curious what's the point of the PAO quest. There is one, I assume?
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Quote:
Yeah right. like it is a secret if you want to spend the $$$ a lab can get you a pretty good idea what is in the oil .
It is a company's IP, not subject to publication. Is that unreasonable?
When I pay $6.00 per qt it is Don't you want to know what you are paying for ?
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Yeah right. like it is a secret if you want to spend the $$$ a lab can get you a pretty good idea what is in the oil .
It is a company's IP, not subject to publication. Is that unreasonable?
When I pay $6.00 per qt it is Don't you want to know what you are paying for ?
You are paying for an engine lubricant that takes on the alternative roles of hydrualic fluid, coolant and solution for impurities.
Originally Posted By: BullyT
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." Oscar Wilde
But sometimes especially with photos very very much needed and efective.
Nw I don't have a photo but my Focus looked the same on motorcraft with 3K OCI.
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." Oscar Wilde
But sometimes especially with photos very very much needed and efective.
Nw I don't have a photo but my Focus looked the same on motorcraft with 3K OCI.
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My engine that has been run on 5k OCI's of dealer bulk oil for the first 125,000 miles or so, looks just like that first picture when I pulled the valve cover off. Keep in mind, this was also with yesterdays oils since 1994.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
...they will say proprietary. Yeah right. like it is a secret if you want to spend the $$$ a lab can get you a pretty good idea what is in the oil .
Audie Jumkie makes some good points; engineering matrix vs. performance or just playing around?
There are so many different chemical compounds in PCMO's that unless you spend over $1k for some expensive analysis, you would never know the actual makeup of an oil.
ANd unless you're just a copycat blender, it's best to develop your own formulations.
Some companies (such as Lubrication Engineers and RLI) even formulate their own additive mixes.
Each major oil company has a "stealth" ingredient that sets it apart from others.
Our past full synthetic PCMO formulations had various viscosity PAO's comprising about 60% of the formulation with additives, esters, and stealth ingredients comprising the rest.
Today, with majority GroupIII oils (approx. 65%), the PAO may be 5 to 10% with Group II and V, and additives comprising the rest.
With the quality and perfomance of current majority GroupIII oils, PAO's, esters, and AN's are almost considered as additives to adjust (Tune) viscosity, volitility, solubility, and oxidation resistance.
Each oil formulation has different percentages of base oils and additives.
And oh yes, let's not forget the new Gas-To-Liquid (GTL)technology that has the potential to produce an oil that outperforms GIII and GIV PAO.
...they will say proprietary. Yeah right. like it is a secret if you want to spend the $$$ a lab can get you a pretty good idea what is in the oil .
Audie Jumkie makes some good points; engineering matrix vs. performance or just playing around?
There are so many different chemical compounds in PCMO's that unless you spend over $1k for some expensive analysis, you would never know the actual makeup of an oil.
ANd unless you're just a copycat blender, it's best to develop your own formulations.
Some companies (such as Lubrication Engineers and RLI) even formulate their own additive mixes.
Each major oil company has a "stealth" ingredient that sets it apart from others.
Our past full synthetic PCMO formulations had various viscosity PAO's comprising about 60% of the formulation with additives, esters, and stealth ingredients comprising the rest.
Today, with majority GroupIII oils (approx. 65%), the PAO may be 5 to 10% with Group II and V, and additives comprising the rest.
With the quality and perfomance of current majority GroupIII oils, PAO's, esters, and AN's are almost considered as additives to adjust (Tune) viscosity, volitility, solubility, and oxidation resistance.
Each oil formulation has different percentages of base oils and additives.
And oh yes, let's not forget the new Gas-To-Liquid (GTL)technology that has the potential to produce an oil that outperforms GIII and GIV PAO.
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Originally Posted By: ewetho
Originally Posted By: BullyT
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." Oscar Wilde
But sometimes especially with photos very very much needed and efective.
Nw I don't have a photo but my Focus looked the same on motorcraft with 3K OCI.
A number of high-end automotive manufacturers recommend synthetic only. BMW is very specific regarding the oil to be used in their 7-Series cars (A3 long-life synthetic), and these engines are known to run hot. Picture below is a BMW V-8 4.4 litre that was run on dino oil and not the recommended synthetic.
Originally Posted By: BullyT
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." Oscar Wilde
But sometimes especially with photos very very much needed and efective.
Nw I don't have a photo but my Focus looked the same on motorcraft with 3K OCI.
A number of high-end automotive manufacturers recommend synthetic only. BMW is very specific regarding the oil to be used in their 7-Series cars (A3 long-life synthetic), and these engines are known to run hot. Picture below is a BMW V-8 4.4 litre that was run on dino oil and not the recommended synthetic.
Royal Purple is mostly PAO, but uses group I as carrier oil.
That in mind, many products outperform it.
That in mind, many products outperform it.
Would it be a safe assumption for the non engineer or would who could read the batch codes to look at the pour points and flash points? Surely an oil with a pour point below -50F could only be made by majority PAO, same for a flash of above 440F. Or not?
Group V Polyol Ester can meet those needs, however, it must be mixed with other products or it will cause seal problems.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: BullyT
A number of high-end automotive manufacturers recommend synthetic only. BMW is very specific regarding the oil to be used in their 7-Series cars (A3 long-life synthetic), and these engines are known to run hot. Picture below is a BMW V-8 4.4 litre that was run on dino oil and not the recommended synthetic.
What? That engine looked fine for another 100k!
A number of high-end automotive manufacturers recommend synthetic only. BMW is very specific regarding the oil to be used in their 7-Series cars (A3 long-life synthetic), and these engines are known to run hot. Picture below is a BMW V-8 4.4 litre that was run on dino oil and not the recommended synthetic.
What? That engine looked fine for another 100k!
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Would it be a safe assumption for the non engineer or would who could read the batch codes to look at the pour points and flash points? Surely an oil with a pour point below -50F could only be made by majority PAO, same for a flash of above 440F. Or not?
No. Because one could use a GroupII or GroupIII oil with pour-point depressants and accomplish the same PP.
A flash point could be raised by the addition of a non-metallic polymer-based FM/AW chemical, or by the use of esters.
Would it be a safe assumption for the non engineer or would who could read the batch codes to look at the pour points and flash points? Surely an oil with a pour point below -50F could only be made by majority PAO, same for a flash of above 440F. Or not?
No. Because one could use a GroupII or GroupIII oil with pour-point depressants and accomplish the same PP.
A flash point could be raised by the addition of a non-metallic polymer-based FM/AW chemical, or by the use of esters.
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If it was Esters with PAO that would be a good quality base stock then, no?
Jared Mertin, RP tech.
C'mon Audi Junkie, no need for the sarcasm. I think the OP has a valid rationale. Personally, I'd rather buy the product with the closest cost value to retail value ratio.
Meaning, I'd be more inclined to purchase a quart of deliberately synthesized fluids at $5/bottle than highly processed crude oil with "advanced additives" at $5/bottle. I truly don't care if they perform equally. I'd rather buy a factory warranted appliance from an authorized dealer, instead of buying it from the back of a van for the same price... a real Rolex, instead of one from some guy's trenchcoat even though they might both hold time accurately, and may look IDENTICAL. See what I mean?
Meaning, I'd be more inclined to purchase a quart of deliberately synthesized fluids at $5/bottle than highly processed crude oil with "advanced additives" at $5/bottle. I truly don't care if they perform equally. I'd rather buy a factory warranted appliance from an authorized dealer, instead of buying it from the back of a van for the same price... a real Rolex, instead of one from some guy's trenchcoat even though they might both hold time accurately, and may look IDENTICAL. See what I mean?
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