What REAL benefit do summer tires give?

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JHZR2

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Hello,

First and foremost, Im not talking about some supercar used on the track, Im not talking a Ferrari, Corvette, or even an M3 or RS4. Im talking your garden variety A4, 335i, Saab 9-3, v6 altima, GTI, whatever...

Compared to a decent all-season; and lets quantify that to say an H or V-speed rated tire in 16 or 17" sizes, and all with AA traction, A temperature rating, what does it buy you?

Seems to me that it costs more to acquire, gives more noise and lower treadlife for starters, compared to an 'equivalent' quality AS tire. But what else? Does it improve:

-Fuel economy/rolling resistance? (i.e. less RR/better FE)
-Sidewall stiffness for the same speed/load rating?
-Dry handling?
-Wet traction?
-Road noise? (i.e. less)
-Dry weather traction from hard acceleration, etc.?


Anything else?

Other than what seems to be marginally better traction and roadholding in dry conditions, what do I get? What practical benefit do I get using a summer only tire in the nicer months? Something like superior wet-weather roadholding would be an acceptable answer, as it quantifies a practical benefit. Im just trying to get a grasp of benefit for cars that are capable and relatively powerful, but not really purpose-specific sports cars which would be designed to eek out every advantage they could.

I do run snow tires on all my cars in the winter, FWIW. So, for me, having summer and winter tires is an option vice A/S and winter tires, which is what we run now. But I need to see if there is a benefit to justify the cost, and I want to know as a rule what Im giving up and what Im obtaining switching to that style a tire.

Thanks in advance for any insight!

JMH
 
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Dry handling and traction is the main benefit of summer tires. All other benefits can be found to a similar or greater extent in a good set of all-season tires. It's going one step further than the others.

Summer tires are a "maximum performance" type application where the only desired result is the most grip on dry pavement or pavement with no standing water above 50 or so degrees.
 
Number one is dry traction.

Wet traction could be better or worse than all seasons.

In my experience summer tires have stiffer sidewalls and more road noise. I'm sure this can vary by brand but I think it holds true most of the time.

I've pushed the TL to the limits on the stock all seasons and two sets of summer tires. There was a noticable crispness in the turn-in with the summer tires and grip was up enough that the car hits the bumpstops in the rear around hard corners. Very unsettling. Even when the rear slides, it feels more predictable where when the all seasons let go it would mean nearly full lock on the steering to bring it back.
 
Here's :2cents: worth. Used to be roads were worse, tires only came in a few different compounds of rubber, traction control was unheard of, some not too expensive cars could put out tons of hp or be modified to do so, tread designs were primitive, ... you get the point. Given all that people from Canada to the gulf, ok maybe just north of there somewhere, would have to switch from summer to winter tires just to get through the snow, or mud or down the dirt roads they lived off of to get to town during winter or rainy season or what have you. You wouldn't run winter tires in the summer (though I saw those that did) 'cause they wer just too dang noisy, and cost enough that you didn't want to wear them out before next season, and maybe hurt fuel mileage, plus they just don't work that well on dry.

Fast forward... today roads are better, tire compounds can be made is so many different ways that the only reason I can think of to have a "summer" tire that is not AS, is that they are stickier and therefore optimum for spirited driving on dry pavement, or you really do live somewhere that actually get enough actual snow that where you have to go is snowed over, ie you can't count on roads being cleared and you need actual traction in snow. Or you do have a car with enough performance that you want to take advantage of dry pavement only tires (at the track they would be slicks) with minimal tread ie. stickier but then wear faster too, and still want to drive that vehicle the rest of the year in not so clear weather as well. For everyone else a good AS tire today seems to be a great compromise for the majority of cars out there.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Does it improve:

-Fuel economy/rolling resistance? (i.e. less RR/better FE)
-Sidewall stiffness for the same speed/load rating?
-Dry handling?
-Wet traction?
-Road noise? (i.e. less)
-Dry weather traction from hard acceleration, etc.?

Summer tires definitely do not improve fuel economy. They do improve steering response (due to stiffer sidewalls) and they do improve dry and wet traction, although it's hard to say whether you'd be able to actually notice that difference. For example, here are the results of two tests TR did (same car, same tire sizes) - the first is of high end all season tires, the second is high end summer tires:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=87
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=101

Notice the slalom and lap times and stopping distances as well as cornering numbers.

As for me, I am seriously considering going back to all-season tires next time. It's no fun dishing out $600+ for tires every 15k miles, especially that I rarely push the car to its limits. My main mission now is to try to find tires that are light, that do nott flatspot easily, and that stay quiet past 10k miles. The flatspotting drives me nuts with my current set of tires. The noise is becoming a neusance as well.
 
I've asked the same. Wear vs grip is the big tradeoff. I drive too many miles for sub300 wear tires. This year, I tried 2 different summers, Avons and General Exclaims. They ride smooth and quiet, and have nice grip. Sharp handling. I cant' really think of any real reason to fit them for normal driving, execpt if you get them on closeout like I did ($55 for the Avons, 1/2 price). I could see mfgs who are trying to sell a performance car wanting them over a/s to show case their product. All I can say is to try them yourself. Some tires perform like summers (potenzas) but are ~maybe~ ok in winter, but carry a decent wear rating.

fwiw, on the track, the fastest a/s are still slower than the slowest summers.
 
In my opinion AS tires make sense only if you drive most of the time in cold (under 10°C) and wet weather. On wet and dry roads in warmer weather AS tires make no sense. On ice, slush and snow, AS tires are still only a compromise and show not nearly the performance of a real winter tire.
 
I run summer tires on all my cars and they're great. Compared to the Eagle RS-As that came on our Olds Intrigue originally, the Potenza RE750s I have on the car now are vastly superior in the conditions we drive in (great traction and handling and a smooth quiet ride). No complaints whatsoever with summer tires.
 
I guess my point is there really is no summer tire anymore, unless they are high wear, performance tires, the technology of the tire have blended the traditional summer tire and the AS tire in performance where what was considered a summer tire gives at least 3 season performance, at least among good ones.
 
Not all Summer tires are high wear. I got 45k out of my "Max Performance" Eagle F1 GSD3's (225-45-17, 94W). The stock Summer Firestone SZ50's in a 215-50-17 ZR had 25k on them with plenty left when I replaced them due to a blowout caused by a foreign object. I think that people associate Summer tires with HP cars. Some of these HP cars use staggered fitments which can't be rotated. Some of the HP cars have suspension/alignment set ups which accelerate tire wear. So Summer tires get a bad rap for wear because of this.

If you surf Tire Rack alot, you'll notice that the AA rating can be found on both Summer and A/S. The F1's I had were outstanding in the wet and dry, much more tire than my suspension could handle so it was difficult to break them loose. We don't get much snow here and it seemed a logical choice. Now, I've replaced the F1's with the F1 A/S because we have family up north who aren't getting any younger and I wanted a little insurance in case I had to make a trip.
 
^^ Some guys also like to do a lot of burnouts and then complain their tires handle like [censored] because there's no tread left on them :) I had 13,000 Miles on a pair of Supra 712s (255/50/17) mainly because of childish show off shows with the back tires :) I think the fronts have close to maybe 30K and are now almost to the wear bars

I usually try and find a well balanced tire for my driving. It usually just so happens more often than not it turns out to be a summer tire. Dry and Wet traction is a plus for me, but If i need all out dry traction, I slap on the ET Drags :)
 
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I've got a set of All Seasons on my Scion xD. [censored] Bridgestone OEM something or other. OEM tires usually get blamed for being junk, whether or not they really are has been debated before. Now, using my two cars as examples, I notice a huge difference in the handle between the UHP A/S on the Matrix and the regular A/S on the Scion. I have a favorite on-ramp which I will run at higher speeds. The UHP A/S's will run it at 80+ highway entrance speeds and show little sign (if any) of slip. The regular A/S's slip alot and have about a 65 mph entry speed. No TC on the UHP's. TC on the Scion but it doesn't activate. And yep, it's apples to oranges.
 
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Just like other things in life, you have to pick your battles. You just have to pick your times on the interstate. I don't "play" if there is other traffic or if I have family in the car.
 
The main benefits of dedicated summer tires are primarily, dry traction. They comparably have much higher dry grip both longitudinally (acceleration and braking) and laterally (cornering). A very sticky summer tire can reduce your 60-0 braking distances by 20+ feet compared to an all-season. They'll also allow you to accelerate and turn harder before losing traction.

The rubber compounds that tend to be used in performance tires tend to also provide higher grip on wet roads (no standing water).

The downsides are that due to the goal of maximum dry traction, they tend to have less void area. The more rubber you have on the road, the better your dry traction (hence racing slicks with no voids and max rubber on the road).

Tread patterns or void areas are there solely for hydroplaning prevention. With less void area on max performance tires, they can have less hydroplaning resistance, although some summer tires are developed to give up maximum dry traction for better wet traction and hydroplaning resistance. Goodyear's Eagle F1 GSD3 is an example of this.

For the most part, the stickiest tires with the best traction tend to also have higher rolling resistance and poorer fuel economy.

Stiffer sidewalls are another handling attribute common to summer tires. They reduce tire squirm and result in quicker turn-in, but they also tend to make the ride harsher though.


Max
 
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