why honda and others don't use timing chain in

[M1Accord]

is there a good instruction video on how to replace timing belt on various vehicles. i don't mind paying for the video and do it myself. i have the repair manual from hayne but it is not very clear for complicated jobs, and this is one of those jobs.

i have a honda 02 accord v6 and a toyota 92 corolla le that needed timing belt in 30k miles. the cost of changing the belt on the corolla will be quite pricy for the value of the vehicle. and i am sure honda dealership would love to see me coming and rip me a new one as they know i never take my car in to them for regular maintenance so this is their only time to profit from people like me.

thanks.

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

Maybe bring your cars to good independent mechanics?

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: M1Accord


i have a honda 02 accord v6 and a toyota 92 corolla le that needed timing belt in 30k miles. the cost of changing the belt on the corolla will be quite pricy for the value of the vehicle. and i am sure honda dealership would love to see me coming and rip me a new one as they know i never take my car in to them for regular maintenance so this is their only time to profit from people like me.

thanks.


The likely case on your corolla is any repair is likely more than the car is worth so timing belt is no different. I can guess a decent independent can do the job for $300-$400 including all the belts and possibly water pump.

Not sure if V6 is much more complex however my 95 Civic was done for $350 including water pump, valve clearance check, timing belt, and all other belts. I hardly think that is expensive for a dealer back in 2002.

IMHO people either pay way too much for changes or rant a lot more than it reality is. My advice is call around everywhere, I found the dealer was least expensive oddly in my case.

 

[Tosh]

I don't remember now where I read this, but it was something about the Japanese Ministry of Whatever recommending that their car companies start moving to timing chains rather than belts. This was probably over 5 years ago.

Anyway, I'm not choosing a car based on it having a belt or chain. Rear discs vs drums, maybe. Usually comes down to having good seats, good headlights, good visibility, and an aspiration to overall quality.

 

[Bamaro]

Buying a car with a belt and interference engine is just asking for trouble.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: Squishy
the high compression engine in our MDX takes 2-4 seconds to start, while the Escape and Trans Sport V6s take around half a second


As far as I can determine the compression ratio for both the engine in the MDX and the Ford Escape (3.0L Duratec V6) is 10:1

 

[LTVibe]

Originally Posted By: Tosh
I don't remember now where I read this, but it was something about the Japanese Ministry of Whatever recommending that their car companies start moving to timing chains rather than belts. This was probably over 5 years ago.


Or we could blame it on the EPA:

From Belts To Chains

Quote:
"The shift from belts to more durable timing chain systems makes engines more fuel efficient and reduces emissions," said Roger Wood, President and General Manager, BorgWarner Morse TEC. "Our small-pitch silent-chain technology for use in overhead cam engines is designed for low noise, power, durability, and a compact package to accommodate smaller and smaller engines."

The use of chain drives by Japanese automakers worldwide is expected to grow by more than 50 percent -- from 3.6 million engines currently to about 8.5 million by 2005. BorgWarner will produce these timing chains at its facilities in Nabari City, Japan and Ithaca, New York. The company recently expanded its Nabari City operation by 50 percent in anticipation of demand for its small-pitch silent chains.

In the U.S., engine component longevity has become a key factor in engine design with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) requiring emissions equipment durability of up to 150,000 miles.

 

[BarkerMan]

I think the change from belts to chains is a move to cheaper maintenance. The chain will outlast the first owner and that's the person of interest to the manufacturer. Even an engine that may be considered the world's reliability champ the Toyota 4.7 V8 when from belt to chain when Toyota needed a larger V8 for the new pickup and Sequoia. I've never heard of a belt problem with the 4.7 but it does call for a change at 105k miles.

I have wondered if having a chain throws more wear particles into the oil?

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Buying a car with a belt and interference engine is just asking for trouble.

I have driven 3 vehicles into 150k-200k range over 20 years with this type of engine. Never a problem. Just a onetime $250-$350 maintenance bill on each vehicle that included water pump & other belts.

Maybe it will much more for my 2004 Subaru WRX, no idea but that is four more years away.

 

[Bamaro]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Buying a car with a belt and interference engine is just asking for trouble.

I have driven 3 vehicles into 150k-200k range over 20 years with this type of engine. Never a problem. Just a onetime $250-$350 maintenance bill on each vehicle that included water pump & other belts.

Maybe it will much more for my 2004 Subaru WRX, no idea but that is four more years away.

All I can say is - careful, the clock is ticking.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: rjundi

..I have driven 3 vehicles into 150k-200k range over 20 years with this type of engine. Never a problem. Just a onetime $250-$350 maintenance bill on each vehicle that included water pump & other belts.


That is very cheap. It's more like $500-1000 on average now. Even so, you're getting a new T-belt, new tensioner, water pump and many times even the front crank seal and cam seals. On top of that, your coolant is going to get drained/filled, and your serp.belt and sparkplugs will get changed as well. That's lots of new stuff for the price. If I was driving 50Kmi a year, I'd let the T-belt go to 150K+, other than that, I'd think ~105Kmi/6-8yrs, which ever comes first.

Joel

 

[brianl703]

I paid around $600 to get the timing chain replaced on my 1988 Ford Mustang GT.

There was nothing wrong with the timing chain--it had a serious coolant leak from the timing cover gasket, so the timing cover had to come off to replace it and since it was open the timing chain was replaced anyway. It had about 170K miles on it at that time.

For that price I got a new timing cover seal, new waterpump, a new timing set (sprockets and chain), new crankshaft seal, new thermostat and bypass hose and a new serpentine belt. New coolant too. I think I might have gotten a new fan clutch too but I can't remember for sure.

Oddly enough, the coolant was leaking from where I had touched a piece of the gasket that was sticking out. It was very brittle and broke. Maybe if I had left it alone...

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
I paid around $600 to get the timing chain replaced on my 1988 Ford Mustang GT.

There was nothing wrong with the timing chain--it had a serious coolant leak from the timing cover gasket..


Same deal with my 2001 Windstar 3.8L. The dreaded 'all-inclusive' timing chain cover. Mine was just starting to weep coolant and oil. Removal and parts replacement was more than I could do and costs could run up to more than the van was worth.

Joel

 

[ffracer]

I had a racer friend who worked for a company that did timing chains (engineer). They made them for Honda in the US for even Japanese Hondas.

He said that both work well, but the chain has better longevitity, but the belt is predictable and if you change it, it will work fine.

The chains have gotten much better, so reliability should be good for one change in the life of a car. i.e. 300+.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Belt broke on MiL's Audi after 60k. Car is out of service for 1.5 years now. Local mechanic is a wanker. We're not happy about it.

 

[Cogito]

Do chains stretch over time? If so, does this cause timing problems? Can chains be adjusted if they stretch and the engine gets out of time?

 

[Cutehumor]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Belt broke on MiL's Audi after 60k. Car is out of service for 1.5 years now. Local mechanic is a wanker. We're not happy about it.


VW/audi dealership?

 

[Kestas]

Cogito, with the old V8s from decades ago, rule of thumb was to replace the timing chain once there was 10° of slop. This was checked by rotating the crank dampner back and forth while watching the timing marks and distributor rotor at the same time. Replacement was needed typically sometime over 100K.

I'm not sure about modern engines with the overhead cams and long chains with tensioners. Replacement may be triggered when the tensioner reaches its limit.

 

[Cogito]

So if it stretches, there's no way to fix it other than complete replacement?

 

[Kestas]

Yes. At that point the chain is worn and needs to be replaced. Left unchecked it can result in catastrophic failure.