Handgun bullet penetration

[hi-miler]

I'm starting this thread because of what I have read in the past versus what I've been reading in the CCW thread.
It's my understanding through reading over the recent years that most "defence" style hollow points are designed for about 11 1/2 inches of penetration through ballistic gellatin. This rule of thumb came about after the FBI shootings where a number of suspects were wounded from a number of different rounds, some not penetrating far enough to stop the perpetrator(s). Most of the hollowpoints (Federal, Gold Dot) energy is expended within this distance, and there just isn't a lot of oomph left in the round after that as long as it has entered a torso, or other semisolid or better mass. The frangible soft points like BeeSafe, and RBCD, and other names are designed for high velocity and explosive impact with minimal range and no lethality to others after impact upon a semisolid or solid mass.
Caliber of round determines knockdown, but not expecially penetration as they are all designed to about the same specs. for penetration. Ball ammo is a notable exception due to a good mass, almost non existent expansion, and was never intended for anything more than what it is.
This isn't meant to be an experts opinion, it's just what I imagine as being the truth after reading lots of articles.
I currently carry a .45 with RBCD Totally Frangible Soft Points that are advertised as not being able to penetrate both sides of a sheetrock wall intact. My backup magazine has Speer Gold Dots because if I have to change mags, I'm in a world of trouble and need all the distance and stopping power I can get. Plus, by that time all the innocents should have ducked, and probably the perp was after them anyway if recent events are any indicator.
I say let your ability to control, afford , and your desire to posess said caliber/firearm be the reasons.

 

[Schmoe]

Interesting point. I've read too many things about how hollow points jamming. Don't know the reason, but I'd suspect they are softer. The reason I got a 9mm was that I didn't want to blow threw the target and then hit someone on the other side. However, your argument makes a lot of sense too. Will have to think about that one for a while. But, if I need an extra clip, then I shouldn't have been there in the first place. But, worse things have happened.

 

[mountravlr]

My first five rounds in 9MM are Glaser Safety Slugs because of the instant energy release at impact. These rounds should be effective at close range. The second clip contains FMJ rounds.

 

[Schmoe]

I've got FMJ rounds in mine. I'm still kind of "new" at this, exactly what does a "safety slug" really do???

 

[Tempest]

"Safety slugs" are light weight and fragile bullets that break apart quickly after hitting something. Theory being that it is safer for innocents down range. They also produce very little penetration and have poor stopping records, combined with very high cost, which makes it hard to test your weapon for reliability and practice. I will not use them.

Hollow points can be less reliable due to the flat profile on their nose. This makes it more difficult to slide up the feed ramp and into the chamber. Most modern guns do not have a problem with this, and hollow point design has improved function as well.

I don't recall ever hearing about someone being hit from a round that has already hit some else in the civilian world. I'm sure it has happened, but not very often, and is probably very rare. If it was a big problem, then the police (who have ~15-20% hit rates) would carry these rounds and I know of no agency that does. If you are worried about legalities after the fact (and you should be), find out what your local police use and carry the same. It would be hard for a prosecutor to attack this choice since a fellow agency uses the same.

I believe the FBI is still carrying Golden Saber rounds and they are a favorite of mine. Gold Dots have also shown to be very effective.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
The reason I got a 9mm was that I didn't want to blow threw the target and then hit someone on the other side.


9mm actually has considerable penetration abilities...particularly with hardball ammo.

 

[Mystic]

This is another debate that never ends. The military used to use revolvers like the single action .45, then went to smaller calibers, ran into problems, and went to the 1911 .45. The the military went to the 9 mm for higher capacity and because it was what NATO used and if a soldier ran out of ammo for his gun he might be able to use ammo from a fallen soldier's, either enemy or another NATO nation like Britain.

But the military must use FMJ. And what really counts is bullet placement. Everything being equal I think a 1911 .45 would be more effective than a 9 mm. But if the 9 mm is using ammo designed to be more effective the 9 mm might be just as effective or more so. The most effective handgun round (on people) ever was probably the .357 125 grain hollow point.

I guess the discussion has to be separated into one discussion for the military and one for the civilian world. I have heard of people being shot more than 30 times by 9 mm rounds before they went down. But few people are still standing if they are hit by .45 rounds. I kind of think we should not care what NATO uses and USA soldiers should use the .45. Not that a handgun really makes that much difference in warfare anyway.

In the civilian world a 9 mm handgun with good ammo can still be effective. And the ammo tends to be cheaper. You just want to be able to stop somebody who breaks into your house and wants to harm your family and you. Many handguns will work-.38 Special, 1911 .45, 9 mm, .40 cal, etc.

Remember the story about how in WWI Sgt. York received the Medal of Honor after stopping several German soldiers with a handgun? Well, I have heard that it was not a .45 that he had. It was a smaller caliber handgun.

 

[hi-miler]

Thanks guys
This is exactly what I was hoping for, a quick primer on the basics of the bullet. My understanding of why the 9mm became so popular was the ability to control the firearm coupled with better stopping power than the .38 round. There's a saying, "Better one hit with a 9mm than multiple misses with a caliber you can't handle".
To kind of bolster what has been discussed. I normally carry a concealable .45, I have a smaller 10 round 9mm that I also carry from time to time usually in the summer, my wife carries a .380, my daughter has a 20 guage pump short barrel shotgun loaded with buck and slugs in her apartment, and we have a 12 guage loaded with buck and slugs in our house. I have three children still living at home, and used to work at some office buildings downtown Dallas, hence the safety rounds with the hollow point backup magazine. A retired Dallas police officer once told me that a handgun is used to fight your way to the shotgun.
Thanks again for the insight from all.
Steve

 

[Rob Taggs]

Don't forget shot placement!

 

[Footpounds]

Originally Posted By: hi-miler
Thanks guys
This is exactly what I was hoping for, a quick primer on the basics of the bullet. My understanding of why the 9mm became so popular was the ability to control the firearm coupled with better stopping power than the .38 round. There's a saying, "Better one hit with a 9mm than multiple misses with a caliber you can't handle".
To kind of bolster what has been discussed. I normally carry a concealable .45, I have a smaller 10 round 9mm that I also carry from time to time usually in the summer, my wife carries a .380, my daughter has a 20 guage pump short barrel shotgun loaded with buck and slugs in her apartment, and we have a 12 guage loaded with buck and slugs in our house. I have three children still living at home, and used to work at some office buildings downtown Dallas, hence the safety rounds with the hollow point backup magazine. A retired Dallas police officer once told me that a handgun is used to fight your way to the shotgun.
Thanks again for the insight from all.
Steve


I question the wisdom of having your shotguns loaded with buck and slugs. Especially an apartment dweller (your daughter) being loaded with buck and slugs. In an apartment, that slug (and those large buckshots) will pass through the bad guy and multiple walls like a hot knife through butter. You won't be in trouble for killing a bad guy in YOUR house or apartment but you WILL be in trouble for killing/wounding a person in the next apartment or even 2 apartments away. For my money, loading that shotgun with #7 1/2 or #8 will be just as effective and alot safer. At close range that birdshot will be a "solid" mass of lead but will stay inside of the intruder.

 

[Schmoe]

Now isn't a 9mm "about" the same size as a .38? Good point on control. When I took the class last week, there was a guy with a .45 next to me and my gosh, sounded and felt like a MLRS taking off. Lots of recoil. I think I'd be afraid of it and then afraid to use it. The 9mm felt good, not to much recoil. Now I need to get some "good" ammo for it. OK, don't laugh, and I know some of you dedicated gunners will frown on this, but I'm limited because of the small town I live in, to Walmart ammo. What kind of "good" ammo should I get for carrying? I use the cheap stuff for practicing.

 

[heathenbrewing]

The most effective caliber is the one that allows you the most practice and the best shot placement.

My choice is 9mm with Federal Hydro-shok rounds or Corbon +P+.

 

[FZ1]

9mm cor bon 125 @ 1250.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Now isn't a 9mm "about" the same size as a .38?

Yes, .002" difference.

I like #3 or 4 buck for home defense in a shotgun. Birdshot may not provide adequate penetration, depending on range, and will still go through a wall (I have seen a test). #3 and 4 is much lighter than OO but will still get the job at in house ranges.

I've had too many pops and puffs rather than bangs with Cor-bon. I don't use their stuff anymore.

 

[hi-miler]

Footpounds
To be honest with you I didn't think of something so obvious. I just defaulted to what the police load theirs to. I'll give that some serious consideration.
Got lots of the bird shot around. I'm not a dove hunter as much as I'm a dove educator. I'm the one who teaches em to flare because I miss so much.

 

[bigbadbowtie]

Here is some good info on FBI gelatin tests. I currently have Speer GD 124gr +p in my carry weapon.


http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php?sort=lbfps

 

[mikeg5]

i love my 9mil.. glock g19 to be exact with one hellashish combat light attached. very well balanced. the light was around $150 or so.. to be honest i havent even shot my 9 in a looong time.. i need to drag it out and get her going again.. she is loaded with (if i remember correctly) black talons but i could be wrong.. they were expensive has heck i do remember that

 

[hi-miler]

If you have a semi auto pistol, you must maintain adequate lubrication. I made the mistake of not doing this once, took the firearm out to the range, and it became a jam-a-matic. Once every 3 months should be an absolute minimum.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: hi-miler
Thanks guys
This is exactly what I was hoping for, a quick primer on the basics of the bullet. My understanding of why the 9mm became so popular was the ability to control the firearm coupled with better stopping power than the .38 round. There's a saying, "Better one hit with a 9mm than multiple misses with a caliber you can't handle".
To kind of bolster what has been discussed. I normally carry a concealable .45, I have a smaller 10 round 9mm that I also carry from time to time usually in the summer, my wife carries a .380, my daughter has a 20 guage pump short barrel shotgun loaded with buck and slugs in her apartment, and we have a 12 guage loaded with buck and slugs in our house. I have three children still living at home, and used to work at some office buildings downtown Dallas, hence the safety rounds with the hollow point backup magazine. A retired Dallas police officer once told me that a handgun is used to fight your way to the shotgun.
Thanks again for the insight from all.
Steve


What kind of a neighborhood do you live in? I would seriously consider moving somewhere safer if I had to pack all the time.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: hi-miler
If you have a semi auto pistol, you must maintain adequate lubrication. I made the mistake of not doing this once, took the firearm out to the range, and it became a jam-a-matic. Once every 3 months should be an absolute minimum.


In my younger days it was a weekly ritual