Problems.... need your help

[trik396]

Just received my Blackstone report...

ANTHONY: Note the jump in wear and silicon. Both could be related if the silicon is from abrasive dirt, so we suggest
checking your air filter. If you have done any work on the engine recently, then that could explain both wear and
silicon. In that case, wear is from break-in of new parts and silicon is from sealers. This oil was run longer than any
previous sample, though that usually only affect iron. Soot levels were high, but no fuel or anti-freeze showed up.
Check back in 5,000 miles to keep an eye on wear. There could be problem with brass/bronze parts.
Cummins 6 BT 5.9L
7,500 Mile on sample, 33,000miles on unit
ALUMINUM 2
CHROMIUM 1
IRON 45
COPPER 60
LEAD 6
TIN 2
MOLYBDENUM 359
NICKEL 1
SILVER 3
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 3
BORON 30
SILICON 11
SODIUM 6
CALCIUM 3015
MAGNESIUM 28
PHOSPHORUS 1490
ZINC 1296
BARIUM 0
SUS viscosity @ 210f = 85.4
cST viscosity @ 100c = 16.85
flashpoint = 435
fuel less than .5
water zero
antifreeze zero
insolubles .5

Silicon jumped from my average of 7 to 11
Iron from average of 25 to 45... ouch
Copper from 5 to 60....?

This is running Schaeffers9000 5w40

What is going on with my Cummins?

 

[JAG]

Previous OCI?
Previous oil?
Same air filter?

I think it's safe to say that fuel dilution was NOT the cause. Need more info.

 

[trik396]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Previous OCI?
Previous oil?
Same air filter?

I think it's safe to say that fuel dilution was NOT the cause. Need more info.

Previous OCI have been around every 5000miles and have all been at universal averages except for my first one while still breaking in engine. I've used various oils in the past. Delo, ValvPremBlue, and Mobil Delvac. Same air filter for last 15000 miles with no previous issues (dry filter, AEM).
Two things I forgot to mention. One, my virgin analysis of the Schaeffers9000 showed 9ppm silicon and was advised to take that into account, so, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I have an air filtration problem.
Second, I also ran Torco MPZ oil additive with this OCI. I have read that too much additive pack (phos, zinc, etc.) can have a bad affect on wear. This type of additive is meant for racing, so I assume most guys wouldn't run it for 7500 miles. Either that or I send a sample of the Torco stuff in (I have another bottle) to see if it has copper and iron in the mix???? What say you?

 

[JAG]

I agree now that dirt ingestion isn't the cause.

The viscosity is a bit high, the insolubles are a bit high, and the wear shot up so I think that there is a soot control problem. With diesels, the oil's ability to finely disperse soot is critical. Agglomerated soot is very abrasive.

I respect this oil so I'm going to go ahead and finger the blame on the Torco oil additive. I wouldn't put an oil additive in a diesel engine because if it interferes with soot control, it doesn't matter what good it may otherwise cause. That's my opinion...let's hear from others!

 

[Harley Anderson]

Trik396, I don't think your report is that bad. Yeah your iron went up. Have you been running your truck a lot harder recently? Copper could be a number of things, one from the oil cooler leaching it. What has your lead #'s usually been? You already addressed that silicon is from the oil. What was the visc. of the virgin sample. Your in the upper end of a 40wt so it didn't thicken up that much. I agree with Jag and let your schaeffers do the job without any addatives. After seeing Wap's report over on DTR you ran your oil 2500 miles longer than he did and had much less wear. You still running the Amsoil BP filter? Run 5k again and see where your at.

 

[trik396]

Viscosity was 76.2 for the virgin sample compared to 85.4 on this sample. Lead has been 1 or 2 for every sample as opposed to 6 this time. Still running Amsoil bp filter. This was the longest time I've ran any oil so far.
Just did an oil change with 2 gallons of the Schaeffers9000 and 1 gallon of Delo CI+4 that I had left over from awhile ago. Seems my viscosity has always thickened up a bit over the average. Chalk that up to the third gens producing more soot than previous models. I will sample again in 5k and probably keep my OCI's at 5k as well.
The iron isn't that bad and doesn't worry me as much as the copper issue.

 

[Johnny]

I'm from the old school and very old fashioned when it come to oil mixing. I would not mix anything with the Schaeffer's 9000, but that's just me. I also would not put MPZ in my diesel oil.

Question: Looking at your signature "617rwhp/1200+trq", exactly what mods have you done to your diesel.

 

[Harley Anderson]

Here is a link to my last report, you can see a huge copper spike. I would stick to the 5k intervals and hopefully your soot thickening stays minimal at that oci.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...&gonew=1#UNREAD

 

[trik396]

I've read that report on copper somewhere before... just odd that it pops it's head up kinda randomly... know what I mean?
Harley, is your truck modified at all? Your soot is a little high but not as bad as mine.
Johnny, what mods do I have? It'd be easier to tell you what I don't have... but here are some.
Bigger turbo, intercooler and all related tubing, intake, exhaust. Billet trans, Programmer, and a couple of boxes... and water/meth injection if needed... too many gauges, ARP headstuds, etc.

 

[Harley Anderson]

I am running a TST and some small minor mods including a banks intercooler and intake manifold. My truck dynoed at 382/746 with the TST on 3/2, which is what I normally run mine on. I plan on getting some flux 1's and a upgraded lift pump soon though. Back when my I first started doing uoa's my fe was always in the 40's and insolubles were 0.5 and rotella always thickened up over a 5k interval. Once I got over 25k it dropped and I added a frantz at the same time.

 

[D-Roc]

11ppm silicon is not that high as well. Doesn't look like anything is really wrong...maybe just shorten your interval and see where you end up.

 

[D-Roc]

Someone also mentioned about the copper issue not really being a problem...they posted a bit from a CAT publication...can't recall who it is though.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

I would move to Amsoils 15-40 partial synthetic oil and use the Eao-80 fullflow and BP-Eao-90 and sample at 5K. Run a good fuel conditioner year-round.

 

[dnewton3]

I'd consider flushing with a few short OCI's, and retest.

Presuming all your driving habits and other environmental inputs were the same, the only real variable was the oil additive, so it's likely the "cause". This might be a lesson learned to leave a well engineered product alone; the Schaeffer's products are typically a quality item. If I had to hazzard a guess with the limited info available, I'd put my suspicion here.

I don't think you've really hurt your engine, so don't panic. I often make the analogy of a disturbing UOA to bad news from the doctor. You need a second opinion, and then step back and look at the whole picture.

It's also possible that an "event" happened in your engine, such as a small particle streak developing from an errant particle breaking away. This happens every once in a while to nearly every engine at some point or another. Only those of us who do routine UOA's with consistent inputs even catch this type of event. Most people go gleefully about their lives, not know of this ever happening. We BITOGERS are an anal retentive group, as you well know.

 

[D-Roc]

Also, 617 HP and 1200 Ft lbs of torque will cause different patterns of wear as well...its not going to last like a stock engine.
I have a feeling the coppers is no big deal...that info from CAT mentioned that when the oil gets hot there is a chemical reaction with the oil and the cooler.

 

[trik396]

I don't drive with that horsepower daily. I de-tune it to maybe 500 or so rwhp. But, honestly, with fuel costs, and this minor issue that just popped up, I'm considering going back to a more stock running truck. Maybe reinstalling the stock turbo, going with a mileage only box, and maybe Don M's mileage sticks... I need this truck to last me a long time.

 

[salesrep]

I would consider this sample with a very moderate amount of increased wear. Copper by itself is generally not an issue and this is far from high high. I would not be concerned at this point. The new blend you've created should provide an interesting sample next time around. Then

we can debate schaeffers....schaeffers/delo mix,.....delo.... and that torco stuff variables.

 

[D-Roc]

I find this number- "cST viscosity @ 100c = 16.85" pretty interesting. I think that qualifies for 50 weight if I am not mistaken...

 

[salesrep]

That very well could be the mpz torco gel doing the thickening..

 

[trik396]

All the oils and samples I've gotten have thickened up somewhat. I think that's excessive soot rearing it's head...?