Experience with Redline Oil???

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Originally Posted By: jpr
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
So you are a Troll then?????
No, just trying to give you a fresh chance to strut your technical stuff.

Want another hint? - what is the typical operating temperature range of an automobile engine and how does it change seasonally?


Beware of troll
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: jpr
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
So you are a Troll then?????
No, just trying to give you a fresh chance to strut your technical stuff.

Want another hint? - what is the typical operating temperature range of an automobile engine and how does it change seasonally?


Beware of troll
Boy, I lob you a softball to give you a chance to salvage some shred of credibility and this is the thanks I get?

You would have been better off skipping the name calling and just offering a simple admission of "I don't know."
 
Originally Posted By: jprBeware of troll[/quote
Boy, I lob you a softball to give you a chance to salvage some shred of credibility and this is the thanks I get?

You would have been better off skipping the name calling and just offering a simple admission of "I don't know."


More trolling
 
hmm. What I don't understand is why there's such a mixed opinion about Royal Purple and especially Redline.

Jpr, if you were going to use an oil for track use what would you use?

I have used Redline in my gt28r 1.8T motor (before trading in for 2.0T). And everything looked fine.

I had a 2.0 8v torn apart that used Redline and the seals were in excellent condition.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why you're so apprehensive?
 
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The reason for my apprehension is this: there is a whole lot more going on with oil and the engine/oil interactions than can be fully described by the information available to us as consumers.

For that matter, there is more going on than is fully understood by the oil manufacturers and blenders. That’s why in addition to laboratory tests, API and ACEA approval also requires a battery of engine tests. It’s also why manufacturers’ have established their own tests and approval programs above and beyond API and ACEA standards.

The standards themselves also evolve over time. Take a look for example at the API engine testing to determine the high-speed/high-ambient-temperature performance has evolved over time:
• Sequence IIIE (ASTM D 5533) used in API SJ – this is a 68 hour test run on a 1986 GM V-6 engine at an output of 67.8 bhp
• Sequence IIIF (ASTM D 6984) used in API SL – this is an 80 test run on a 1996/1997 GM V-6 engine at an output of 100 bhp
• Sequence IIIG (ASTM D 7320) used in API SM –this is a 100 hour test run on a 1996/1997 GM V-6 engine at an output of 125 bhp
From this evolution of test requirements, we can infer a few things; (1) what’s going to happen under those conditions remains enough of a mystery that the test must be run to find out; (2) even with a long history of testing, what’s going to happen remains enough of a mystery that the tests performed to find out are continually being improved; (3) you can’t accurately extrapolate results on one engine under one set of conditions to another engine and another set of conditions, i.e. you can’t entirely predict the results of the IIIG test from the IIIF or IIIE test results. Even with these limitations however, the important thing is that the oil has been specifically tested with acceptable results.

As I mentioned many posts back, I don’t believe API, ACEA, or manufacturer approvals represent the holy grail of engine oil performance. But the smart money plays the odds, and your odds are better with an oil that has been vetted by one or more independent agencies. While it’s not a 100% guarantee of performance, it is a significantly less uncertain proposition than using an oil for which these tests have not been conducted or for which the results are unknown. Exactly how much significance one places upon that uncertainty is pretty much an individual choice, there is no single right or wrong answer.

Regarding Redline in particular, one specific concern is the very high level of moly in their oil, about 4~5 times that of almost any other oil (Motul 300V being one known exception). The effects of moly in oil seems to be a subject without clear consensus. Some claim remarkable benefits, some assert remarkable harm. Both may in fact be correct, depending upon exactly what conditions, what engines, what moly levels, and what type of moly are being talked about. What does inspire skepticism though, is that there does seem to be consensus amongst the majors about what’s an appropriate level of moly. These companies spend employ a lot of talent and a phenomenal amount of time, money, and effort developing oils. If the secret to making a super-oil was a simple as dumping in more moly, they’d be doing it too. The reasonable inference is that nothing comes without side-effects and more is not necessarily better. Oil chemistry is all about balance and trade-offs. In comparison with other oils, the Redline moly levels seem out of balance. That may in fact be a reasonable trade-off, but in the absence of detailed information, such as that implied by API or ACEA approval, there’s simply not enough information to tell.

Finally, back to your question of what I’d run in my car at the track. With an M52TU engine, I’d shoot for something at the heavier end of the scale like a 5W-40. I haven’t checked out price or availability on any of these, but here’s a list of possibilities, in no particular order.
• Havoline Synthetic 5W40
• Liqui Moly Synthoil High Tech 5W40
• Penzoil Platinum European Formula 5W40
• Q European Formula 5W40
• Mobil 1 5W40 or 0W40
• Titan Supersyn (SL) 5W40
• Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 or 0W40
• Motul 8100 X-cess 5W40 or E-tech 0W40
All of these oils have formal API, ACEA, MB, BMW, and Porsche approvals. I have yet to hear of anything any of the “boutique” oils have to offer sufficiently above and beyond the properties these oils that would justify to me accepting the uncertainty that comes with lack of approvals. To put it another way, with several high quality choices that do carry approvals, why bother using something that doesn’t?

What you want to use in your car on the track is entirely up to you. I’ve looked in to the issue in regards to my car and my needs and done my best to explain the reasoning that underlies my choices. You’ve got a very different car and engine than I do and quite possibly a different outlook on what is an acceptable risk. So it’s perfectly reasonable for you to consider the information available and make a different choice.
 
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That's all well and good, but I'm surprised you didn't capitalize ''holy grail''. It is a proper noun after all. I'm willing to stand corrected.
 
Originally Posted By: BullyT
That's all well and good, but I'm surprised you didn't capitalize ''holy grail''. It is a proper noun after all. I'm willing to stand corrected.
Guess it depends which one you are talking about, IIRC the French told Arthur they already had one (and one can always trust the French, right?)

I think there is also some grammatical wiggle room in using the phrase "holy grail" to refer in a general sense to an object of a probably impossible quest rather than to just the one proper "Holy Grail". Of course, they may be some overlap, as I've been led to believe from some posters here that the chalice JC used at the Last Supper was in fact a 1 quart easy pour bottle molded in purple plastic.
 
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Originally Posted By: jpr

• Havoline Synthetic 5W40
• Liqui Moly Synthoil High Tech 5W40
• Penzoil Platinum European Formula 5W40
• Q European Formula 5W40
• Mobil 1 5W40 or 0W40
• Titan Supersyn (SL) 5W40
• Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 or 0W40
• Motul 8100 X-cess 5W40 or E-tech 0W40
All of these oils have formal API, ACEA, MB, BMW, and Porsche approvals. I have yet to hear of anything any of the “boutique” oils have to offer sufficiently above and beyond the properties these oils that would justify to me accepting the uncertainty that comes with lack of approvals. To put it another way, with several high quality choices that do carry approvals, why bother using something that doesn’t?


The reason you don't understand why the boutique oils instead of those you have mentioned is because you do not abuse your car. Go to any race track and ask the racers that race their "factory sport cars" what are they using? Redline and RP have street version of their race oils that you can use for street/strip year round. These oils are not designed to meet the minimum standard of a certification. They are designed to give your engine the maximum protection for regular or extended OCI. GM has an oil spec for every vehicle that it produced, yet it makes an engine oil supplement. What do you think the purpose of that engine oil supplement is?

All manufacturer oil specs are designed for the engine warranty purposes. For the case of the Bugatti Veyron (aka high end automobile), Bugatti does not even have an oil spec but required you to change oil at the dealers or the factory only. Furthermore, virtually all European OEM standards require a long duration of longevity of the HTHS viscosity, many around the 3.5 cP. Neither the API nor ILSAC makes any HTHS requirement and very few oil makers specify HT/HS for their oils.

API and ILSAC based their specs on the output of a normal engine (e.g. GM V6). This normal engine is no where near the performance envelope of a Corvette LS9 engine, a Dodge Viper engine, or a Ford GT engine. Those cars are not cheap either.
 
Guess somebody put some more candy in the pinata!

Please do amuse us and present some sort of technical rationale for the following statements:
* Why are oils that "...are not designed to meet the minimum standard of a certification" inherently superior to those that are?
* How exactly are these oils "...designed to give your engine the maximum protection for regular or extended OCI" in ways that approved oils do not?
* Why is using an oil "designed for the engine warranty purposes" a bad thing?

Additionally, are you aware that of all the oils I listed above are, among other things, ACEA A3 oils? Are you aware that ACEA A3 is a minimum grade for BMW, MB and Porsche approval? Are you aware that all the oils listed have an HT/HS of 3.7 or more? If so, what point were you trying to make with this statement - "Furthermore, virtually all European OEM standards require a long duration of longevity of the HTHS viscosity, many around the 3.5 cP. Neither the API nor ILSAC makes any HTHS requirement and very few oil makers specify HT/HS for their oils." Is this the result of a failure to read, a failure to comprehend, or both? (I'm playing the odds and guessing the last one)
 
Oh this is so much fun, I even thought of a few more questions!
* where the ASTM engine tests specify a specific engine for the test, does that make the test results valueless of you do not have that engine?
* did you ever figure out something meaningful to say about your statement of "Here in AZ you do need HT/HS and hence the Redline"?
* What are the manufacturer's oil recommendations for the "abnormal" engines in the Corvette, Viper, and Ford GT?
 
I just can't help myself...
* For what use do you think the GM EOS is intended? Is it a general use additive or for break-in only?
 
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Originally Posted By: jpr
Guess somebody put some more candy in the pinata!

Please do amuse us and present some sort of technical rationale for the following statements:
* Why are oils that "...are not designed to meet the minimum standard of a certification" inherently superior to those that are?

They are competition bred

* How exactly are these oils "...designed to give your engine the maximum protection for regular or extended OCI" in ways that approved oils do not?

approved oils are for the GM V6

* Why is using an oil "designed for the engine warranty purposes" a bad thing?

It is a bad thing if you abuse your engine
 
Originally Posted By: jpr
* where the ASTM engine tests specify a specific engine for the test, does that make the test results valueless of you do not have that engine?

Not valueless but might not be relevant if you don't have the same engine or usage

* did you ever figure out something meaningful to say about your statement of "Here in AZ you do need HT/HS and hence the Redline"?

already answer in previous post. Come to AZ in the summer and I will demonstrate if all of this is beyond your reasoning ability. Here is another hint: VW, Honda, and Nissan have proving ground within 5 mile radius of my shop, why Arizona?

* What are the manufacturer's oil recommendations for the "abnormal" engines in the Corvette, Viper, and Ford GT?

Those engine are not abnormal. They are designed to be abused. Sadly, most of them are street queen so the factory oil is sufficient. But, at the limit of the engine the factory oil is under par.
 
Originally Posted By: jpr
I just can't help myself...

A good beginning is to admit that you can't help yourselves.

* For what use do you think the GM EOS is intended? Is it a general use additive or for break-in only?

Does it matter? You add it to the oil that already has API/ILSAC/etc. approval, why? Because all of those OEM oils do not have what it takes to protect the engine during breakin and severe duty situations.
 
[/quote] Guess it depends which one you are talking about, IIRC the French told Arthur they already had one (and one can always trust the French, right?)

I think there is also some grammatical wiggle room in using the phrase "holy grail" to refer in a general sense to an object of a probably impossible quest rather than to just the one proper "Holy Grail". Of course, they may be some overlap, as I've been led to believe from some posters here that the chalice JC used at the Last Supper was in fact a 1 quart easy pour bottle molded in purple plastic. [/quote]

It appears you are correct on all counts. I had to consult my copy of the immortal Monty Python "Quest for the Holy Grail" screenplay, and sure enough the impossibly rude French knights did tell Arthur they already had a Holy Grail. They even said it was "very nice".

My apologies for hijacking this thread. Just trying to keep the pinata from getting knocked around too much...
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
They are competition bred

Competition bred? You mean they are biologically derived? Are there red and purple cows out there genetically engineered to produce superior oil? I'll make another search through the SAE and ASTM literature, but I don't recall ever seeing the phrase "competition bred" being brought up in technical discussion.
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
approved oils are for the GM V6
Well, please do write a white paper on why this is the case and submit it to SAE, ASTM, API, and/or any technical journal of your choice. I'm sure they will all be very interested to learn that all the research they've spent in developing these tests for evaluating oils has been wasted. Just think how much time and money they can save by simply asking people to vote on their favorite oil instead.
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
It is a bad thing if you abuse your engine
It's also bad thing to flaunt your ingnorance in a public forum, but you've never let that stop you from posting. For example, this is quite a remarkable proposition you've made - manufacturer approved oils are unsuitable for serious use. Simply breathtaking.
 
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Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: jpr
* where the ASTM engine tests specify a specific engine for the test, does that make the test results valueless of you do not have that engine?

Not valueless but might not be relevant if you don't have the same engine or usage

Again, I really look forward to seeing your paper in the technical journals explaining how all the engine approval standards stuff has just been one big 'ol waste of time.
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: jpr
* did you ever figure out something meaningful to say about your statement of "Here in AZ you do need HT/HS and hence the Redline"?

already answer in previous post. Come to AZ in the summer and I will demonstrate if all of this is beyond your reasoning ability. Here is another hint: VW, Honda, and Nissan have proving ground within 5 mile radius of my shop, why Arizona?
Okay, I've given you a few hints already, but it hasn't really seem to help, so here's one last leading question for you - what's hotter, AZ in summer or inside your engine?

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: jpr
* What are the manufacturer's oil recommendations for the "abnormal" engines in the Corvette, Viper, and Ford GT?

Those engine are not abnormal. They are designed to be abused. Sadly, most of them are street queen so the factory oil is sufficient. But, at the limit of the engine the factory oil is under par.
"Abnormal" was your assertion, contained in this statement - "API and ILSAC based their specs on the output of a normal engine (e.g. GM V6). This normal engine is no where near the performance envelope of a Corvette LS9 engine, a Dodge Viper engine, or a Ford GT engine." So please share with us two key pieces of information: (1) what is the spec oil (2) what data do you have that shows this oil is "under par". And just to be clear, by data I mean something technically based, not just another anecdote about an oil must be the best because all your buddies use it, the nice man on the web said so, or how you put in your car and it cured your Aunt's bursitis.
 
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