Schaeffer 9000 5W40: UAO Report - 6.0L F250

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Shear...also, recently came across a fellow (on this board IIRC) who sent in a UOA to Blackstone (It was AME, so not accurate to this post as it could be) they mentioned that many users of Amsoil HDEO's are experiencing higher wear- they recommended he use Dino). I, too, experienced higher wear with Amsoil than other oils I have used (Dino had better results). Many of the UOA's I have seen with Schaeffers in the 6.0 have been very good, not many others have been so...Amsoil included.
If you want proof- I have none, just what I have seen. Just my opinion.
 
Originally Posted By: D-Roc
Shear...also, recently came across a fellow (on this board IIRC) who sent in a UOA to Blackstone (It was AME, so not accurate to this post as it could be) they mentioned that many users of Amsoil HDEO's are experiencing higher wear- they recommended he use Dino). I, too, experienced higher wear with Amsoil than other oils I have used (Dino had better results). Many of the UOA's I have seen with Schaeffers in the 6.0 have been very good, not many others have been so...Amsoil included.
If you want proof- I have none, just what I have seen. Just my opinion.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no doubt. I've included some UOA's with various Amsoil HDEO's, with similar mileage on 6.0's that show less Fe wear than this UOA. I would love to see someone run DEO CJ-4 in this engine as well, which would be a better comparison, IMHO.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=976441#Post976441
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587443#Post587443
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587503#Post587503
 
Truth is Pablo, I am partial to the HDD 5W30- I loved the way my truck ran on it, so I am definitely not against Amsoil. Biggest thing for me though was I didn't leave it in long enough to see what the results were- after I got my AME sample back. I was worried about it though, that it would produce higher wear than I wanted. So it got dumped early. In the end, countless times agonizing over which oil to use and worrying about wear, I just decided that I was going to use what worked for me- (Mostly Delo which I have had fantastic results with), I have a few cases of Schaeffer's as well.
 
I also think the best thing to use for every individual is what has worked the best for them- Amsoil DEO or Schaeffer's 9000, or any other oil that produces great results for the user.
 
I think that part of the reason we see some not-so-attractive UOA's in this section is because of short term interest and need for immediate gratification in a UOA. But it really doesn't work that way.

I have posted a few links before on this site to various SAE papers and a Cummins paper that specifically address the issue of chemical interaction when changing oil brands. If anyone has a UOA where they changed from one brand to another, I always want to know just how many OCI's did they sustain before taking a UOA. Changing brands and then taking a UOA on the first fill/dump cycle is NOT going to give an accurate representation of the oil's abilities. Typically, three OCI's with the same oil brand/viscosity are necesary to get a true look at the wear patterns. Then, to establish true trending, you must continue to use that product for a while to seek out "normality" in the statistical process.

Fluid shear is relevant nearly right away, as chemical interatction with swapping brand will NOT effect this characteristic. But most of us realize that HEUI fuel systems are hard on oil viscosity.

I do think that UOA's are a good tool, but only when used with the understanding that they have inherent limits (the spectral vision is from 1-5um) and that outside influences (such as multiple brand swaps in short durations) can mask true problems, or create the appearance where none exists.

We BITOG'rs can't seem to resist the use of UOA's, and yet we ignore the very fundmental premise that good analysis necessitates. You must control the inputs to have some credibility in the outputs.

I realize that this takes all the fun out of UOA's, by not swapping out brands with each OCI, but to look at one UOA, without knowing how many cycles were endured to produce the results, is just not a true picture of any oil's ability, nor any engine's relative health.
 
Well said Newton. I AM a UOA addict.
crazy2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I think that part of the reason we see some not-so-attractive UOA's in this section is because of short term interest and need for immediate gratification in a UOA. But it really doesn't work that way.

I have posted a few links before on this site to various SAE papers and a Cummins paper that specifically address the issue of chemical interaction when changing oil brands. If anyone has a UOA where they changed from one brand to another, I always want to know just how many OCI's did they sustain before taking a UOA. Changing brands and then taking a UOA on the first fill/dump cycle is NOT going to give an accurate representation of the oil's abilities. Typically, three OCI's with the same oil brand/viscosity are necesary to get a true look at the wear patterns. Then, to establish true trending, you must continue to use that product for a while to seek out "normality" in the statistical process.

Fluid shear is relevant nearly right away, as chemical interatction with swapping brand will NOT effect this characteristic. But most of us realize that HEUI fuel systems are hard on oil viscosity.

I do think that UOA's are a good tool, but only when used with the understanding that they have inherent limits (the spectral vision is from 1-5um) and that outside influences (such as multiple brand swaps in short durations) can mask true problems, or create the appearance where none exists.

We BITOG'rs can't seem to resist the use of UOA's, and yet we ignore the very fundmental premise that good analysis necessitates. You must control the inputs to have some credibility in the outputs.

I realize that this takes all the fun out of UOA's, by not swapping out brands with each OCI, but to look at one UOA, without knowing how many cycles were endured to produce the results, is just not a true picture of any oil's ability, nor any engine's relative health.



Very well written and absolutely correct.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Most people see what they WANT to see in a UOA, not what the UOA is really telling us.


That is true in many cases. Limitations though do obscure some things though that can't be seen.
 
So why would wear metal readings spike after a change to a certain oil (previous oil showing good readings), then when a change to the original oil was made the wear went back down again? I like to believe that dnewton says is true, but sometimes results don't work that way for everyone.
 
Originally Posted By: D-Roc
So why would wear metal readings spike after a change to a certain oil (previous oil showing good readings), then when a change to the original oil was made the wear went back down again? I like to believe that dnewton says is true, but sometimes results don't work that way for everyone.


Could be a lot of reasons. Type of oil, conditions used or nature of that oil's composition. For some oils it takes awhile to lay down it's AW layer fully. Some oils migh show higher wear in favor of deposit prevention, or simply just not control wear as good as other oils. All depends. This is why you need to TREND.
 
D-Roc - the "normalization" of data trending is very complex. I can speak to certain scenarios, but not being a tribologist, some of my examples may be contorted, so bear with me.

As a hypothesis, let's say you ran 35k miles of the same oil (brand "A") with samples set every 5k miles (7 total runnings). There is reasonable data to start developing historical normality. You would notice that wear metals and insolubles are actually dynamic in that they never are one absolute value; rather, they tend to stay in an acceptable range, moving both up and down. Trends, on the other hand, are when the values show continued movement in a signular direction, and infer that some characteristic is no longer in bounds. That movement can be either desirable or undesirable.

Then, one decides to experiment and change brands (to brand "X"). Now after another 5k miles we pull a sample, and get somewhat disturbing wear metal results. By disturbing, I don't mean grossly high or low, I just mean not "normal" by statistical definition. Further, if you don't get what you wanted (expected), then you would presume it to be bad. Here is where panic overtakes reason, and one would then switch back to brand "A". Now we sample again in 5k miles, and the results from this next UOA, while perhaps not completely in "range", would seem more "normal" and comfortable. But the problem is one didn't allow for "normality" to establish itself with the new brand.

In this one example, the engine/oil combination that was initially established, set up long term wear patterns and chemical reactions had stabilized. Then the chemicals were switched, and reactions changed. But "normality" was not established before yet another change occured. When returning back to brand "A" there is a high potential for what is known as "incidental return concurrence", where the desirable reactions had not been fully overcome by the "intruding" chemical, are easily established in return. In short, the typical effects from chemicals in "A" had not been fully erased by "X", and therefore the move back to "A" came as less of a shock. When brand "X" came to town, it didn't have enough time to erase brand "A", and when "A" returned, it was easy to establish "normality".

The thing to remember about normality is that it only exists in the context of location. It's kind of like the old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I am a quality process engineer at work; I see this type of stuff nearly every day. Even I sometimes get caught up in the "snapshot" rather than the whole albumn of information.

And if this weren't harrowing enough, don't forget to consider that each and every engine is just a little different, just as each batch of oil blend is a little different. That's why ranges and trends are so necessary to the proper understanding of UOA's. You need to establish long term ranges AND trends, to see the true health of the engine relative to the oil brand selected.
 
Understood- it all comes down to limiting to the fullest extent the variables involved. I see your point.
One thing however, about people "seeing what they want to see in a UOA", is why would someone want to see elevated wear in said new choice oil? They chose that oil for a reason- most likely because they have high regard for it. Why would someone set their results up for failure, or a lesser result?
Not trying to put down a product, but I have heard from too many users that they experienced elevated wear metals from said oil. Also a comment made by Blackstone in a recent report from another user on this board. Blackstone must see innumerable reports from this oil...
For me, just too many negative reports about a product is enough to dissuade me from using it. With another popular oil on this board which is dino I have always heard and seen positive reports- more positive than negative.
And it's not just me- I was on another forum - NW bombers, and a member used a particular oil that has been known to spike wear metals- reply from other users was "switch to Delo- you should see your wear metals drop".
Like I said, too many negative reports can have a lasting impact on a product-BUT, I certainly see all points about trending.
 
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Anyways, this is all off topic. To the original poster who owns the 6.0 Ford PS- great report!
 
Thanks D-Roc

Just got my second UOA on Schaeffer 9000
Miles on unit - 24490
Miles on oil - 4669 (took a hot sample after draining a quart. Will change oil at 5000)

..........Last................Current
.........Analysis............Analysis
........(Blackstone).........(Dyson)
Aluminum....3...................3
Chromium....1...................1
Iron........23..................29
Copper......3...................4
Lead........2...................2
Tin.........1...................0
Molybdenum..195.................283
Nickel......0...................0
Manganese...0...................na
Silver......0...................0
Titanium....0...................0
Potassium...2...................0
Boron.......6...................2
Silicon.....13..................11
Sodium......6...................13
Calcuim.....3141................2611
Magnesium...7...................9
Phosphorous.1155................1492
Zinc........1390................1391
Barium......0...................1
Vanadium....0...................0
Antimony....35..................37
SUS vis at 210 F 72.1...........na
cSt at 100 C 13.51..............13
Flashpoint.415.................. 390
Fuel. Antifreeze.0....................0
Water.0.........................1178 ppm
Insolubles.0.2..................0
TBN........8.0..................8.3
TAN........1.36.................2.02
Viscosity Index..150............160
Nitration..7....................7


A couple of things to note:

1. I have compared Blackstone to Dyson (MRT) twice now and the iron numbers have been 10 ppm higher w/ Dyson in both samples. My Dyson Iron last time was 32 (Blackstone 23). The iron this time dropped to 29 from 32 (as I look at it). I will do one more Blackstone comparison on this change out. Also, my iron has been high from day 1 (42 ppm w/ Motorcraft 15W40 at 2,000 miles on the oil and 3000 miles on the unit).

2. Copper also looks consistently 1-2 ppm higher w/ Dyson.

3.Dyson has always shown water (466, 692, now 1178 pm). Blackstone has always shown 0.

4. I had quite a bit more idling on this run due to cold weather. I averaged 5 minutes for probably 1/3 to 1/2 the start ups. I used the high idle mod on many of these.

5. I was told that with the slight fuel dilution, the Stanadyne additive may be reacting a little w/ the softer bearing materials and the iron. I would be interested in opinions.

6. Once again the viscosity looks good!

I appreciate any and all feedback!!
 
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I did a UOA with Dyson as well- he also mentioned fuel dilution with additives, other than that he covered all the bases- a little more than Blackstone. And was also helpful after the initial send in of my UOA- I would stick with him.
I use CAT now because of the cost and availability to me (I work at a CAT dealer).
 
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