Experience with Redline Oil???
- Thread starter gasterus
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Someone asked this just a while ago so to save everyone having to repeat themselves look here please:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1063909&fpart=1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1063909&fpart=1
FWIW, and perhaps old news to most, but Redline oils carry no API, ACEA, or manufacturer certifications/approvals.
Their website lists the "API Service Class" of each oil, but does not actually claim API certification. Checking API's engine oil licensees database shows that no Redline products have been certified.
No mention whatsoever is made on Redline's website of ACEA or manufacturer specific approvals.
While I realize API, ACEA, and manufacturer approval testing is expensive and not necessarily the holy grail of engine oil performance, I do think it is an interesting data point.
Their website lists the "API Service Class" of each oil, but does not actually claim API certification. Checking API's engine oil licensees database shows that no Redline products have been certified.
No mention whatsoever is made on Redline's website of ACEA or manufacturer specific approvals.
While I realize API, ACEA, and manufacturer approval testing is expensive and not necessarily the holy grail of engine oil performance, I do think it is an interesting data point.
i disagree jpr. api mandates their values according to feds. which makes oil companies produce bare min.poor quality products and it is very expensive to belong to api...redline and other botique oil companies produce the absolute very best oils which far,far exceed what the api requires..imho
I believe there is plenty of room for well meaning people to disagree about the value of API, ACEA, and/or manufacturer approvals.
My own point of view is that when an oil carries one or more of those specifications it provides me with specific, independent, and reliable information about the properties of the oil. While the absence of those certifications does not automatically condemn an oil, the lack of information results in uncertainity about those properties.
Everybody has and is welcome to their own comfort level in accepting uncertainty and their own judgement as to what supplementary information is sufficient to offset that lack of information due to the lack certifications.
For trivia's sake - both Amsoil and Royal Purple do have API certified products. The API licensee directory is here - http://eolcs.api.org/ I am unaware of a similar database for ACEA.
My own point of view is that when an oil carries one or more of those specifications it provides me with specific, independent, and reliable information about the properties of the oil. While the absence of those certifications does not automatically condemn an oil, the lack of information results in uncertainity about those properties.
Everybody has and is welcome to their own comfort level in accepting uncertainty and their own judgement as to what supplementary information is sufficient to offset that lack of information due to the lack certifications.
For trivia's sake - both Amsoil and Royal Purple do have API certified products. The API licensee directory is here - http://eolcs.api.org/ I am unaware of a similar database for ACEA.
My experience with Redline is not good. RL 10W-30 doubled the oil consumption rate in my 2002 Subaru Impreza RS. Their gear oil (forget which one) leaked out of both transaxles. Fortunately, these bad changes were completely reversible by using products from other brands. My details on all this are lacking because I've written about it so many times.
I think some seal compatibility tests were in order back then on those products. Perhaps if they had tried to get those products certified they would have failed the seal compatibility tests and they could have corrected the issue. I agree with jpr on certifications and the lack of them. Amsoil has experience with making motor oils that achieve certification. That gives me comfort in using their non-certified oils after my bad experience with Redline's non-certified motor and gear oils.
I think some seal compatibility tests were in order back then on those products. Perhaps if they had tried to get those products certified they would have failed the seal compatibility tests and they could have corrected the issue. I agree with jpr on certifications and the lack of them. Amsoil has experience with making motor oils that achieve certification. That gives me comfort in using their non-certified oils after my bad experience with Redline's non-certified motor and gear oils.
Ive used Redline is a few vehicles and never had any issues with it, until this last time. It may just be a coincidence, but I have a 2007 F150 with the 5.4L. I ran Redline's 5W20 in it, and for the first time in its 30000 miles, it used oil. I had to add a quart in 3000 miles. Since then I put 0W30 in there and it hasnt used a drop. So I dont know if it was just a fluke or what, but it did do a great job at cleaning!
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Originally Posted By: jpr
My own point of view is that when an oil carries one or more of those specifications it provides me with specific, independent, and reliable information about the properties of the oil. While the absence of those certifications does not automatically condemn an oil, the lack of information results in uncertainity about those properties.
So, do you always buy the cheapest API or ACEA oil that you can find? Most people on this board pick a brand first then the API/ACEA rating second. RedLine started out as a race oil for the hardcore racers then branched out into PCMO by adding detergent to their race oil. In all of my dual purpose vehicles (track/street or street/offroad) I used a combination of Redline and Royal Purple race oil with no problem so far. OCI is at least 5K.
My own point of view is that when an oil carries one or more of those specifications it provides me with specific, independent, and reliable information about the properties of the oil. While the absence of those certifications does not automatically condemn an oil, the lack of information results in uncertainity about those properties.
So, do you always buy the cheapest API or ACEA oil that you can find? Most people on this board pick a brand first then the API/ACEA rating second. RedLine started out as a race oil for the hardcore racers then branched out into PCMO by adding detergent to their race oil. In all of my dual purpose vehicles (track/street or street/offroad) I used a combination of Redline and Royal Purple race oil with no problem so far. OCI is at least 5K.
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: jpr
My own point of view is that when an oil carries one or more of those specifications it provides me with specific, independent, and reliable information about the properties of the oil. While the absence of those certifications does not automatically condemn an oil, the lack of information results in uncertainity about those properties.
So, do you always buy the cheapest API or ACEA oil that you can find? Most people on this board pick a brand first then the API/ACEA rating second.
See that just seems exactly backwards to me. My shopping starts by looking at what oils meet the criteria I'm after, and then I look at brand and price differences to distinguish among the ones on the short list.
In my a particular application, a 1999 E46 BMW with the M52tu engine, here's what I'm looking for:
* BMW LL-01 approval (which incorporates ACEA and API ratings)
* MB 229.5 approval (weeder criteria)
* full synthetic
That gets me down to a short list of oils from Castrol, Mobil, Shell, Motul, and Elf. GC and M1 0W40 are typically the cheapest but I'd happily run any of the others.
Originally Posted By: jpr
My own point of view is that when an oil carries one or more of those specifications it provides me with specific, independent, and reliable information about the properties of the oil. While the absence of those certifications does not automatically condemn an oil, the lack of information results in uncertainity about those properties.
So, do you always buy the cheapest API or ACEA oil that you can find? Most people on this board pick a brand first then the API/ACEA rating second.
See that just seems exactly backwards to me. My shopping starts by looking at what oils meet the criteria I'm after, and then I look at brand and price differences to distinguish among the ones on the short list.
In my a particular application, a 1999 E46 BMW with the M52tu engine, here's what I'm looking for:
* BMW LL-01 approval (which incorporates ACEA and API ratings)
* MB 229.5 approval (weeder criteria)
* full synthetic
That gets me down to a short list of oils from Castrol, Mobil, Shell, Motul, and Elf. GC and M1 0W40 are typically the cheapest but I'd happily run any of the others.
Originally Posted By: jpr
See that just seems exactly backwards to me. My shopping starts by looking at what oils meet the criteria I'm after, and then I look at brand and price differences to distinguish among the ones on the short list.
In my a particular application, a 1999 E BMW with the M52tu engine, here's what I'm looking for:
* BMW LL-01 approval (which incorporates ACEA and API ratings)
* MB 229.5 approval (weeder criteria)
* full synthetic
That gets me down to a short list of oils from Castrol, Mobil, Shell, Motul, and Elf. GC and M1 0W40 are typically the cheapest but I'd happily run any of the others.
Here lies the difference. You basically focused on factory oil equivalence, whereas most of us here are going beyond the factory recommendation. As you can see in the UOA section, some of the OEM recommended oils don't do too well on the recommended OCI. Whereas, non API oils might be better than OEM for extended OCI or severe services. This is why hard core oil users will start with a known oil companies such as Amsoil, Redline, Klotz, Royal Purple, etc., then the product that will suit their vehicles.
See that just seems exactly backwards to me. My shopping starts by looking at what oils meet the criteria I'm after, and then I look at brand and price differences to distinguish among the ones on the short list.
In my a particular application, a 1999 E BMW with the M52tu engine, here's what I'm looking for:
* BMW LL-01 approval (which incorporates ACEA and API ratings)
* MB 229.5 approval (weeder criteria)
* full synthetic
That gets me down to a short list of oils from Castrol, Mobil, Shell, Motul, and Elf. GC and M1 0W40 are typically the cheapest but I'd happily run any of the others.
Here lies the difference. You basically focused on factory oil equivalence, whereas most of us here are going beyond the factory recommendation. As you can see in the UOA section, some of the OEM recommended oils don't do too well on the recommended OCI. Whereas, non API oils might be better than OEM for extended OCI or severe services. This is why hard core oil users will start with a known oil companies such as Amsoil, Redline, Klotz, Royal Purple, etc., then the product that will suit their vehicles.
Not exactly - for me it's all about the properties of the oil and the various standards, including manufacturer standards are mere shorthand indicators of properties.
An oil's API or ACEA rating provides me with certain specific information about an oil. Whether an oil is SJ, SL, or SM rated provides distinguishing information. Likewise, an oil's ACEA rating provides additional information about the oils properties.
Manufacturer's ratings provide additional information. If an oil is BMW approved, I know it has been met specific test requirements deliniated by BMW. Same for Mercedes, which reportly has 56 specific test criteria for the oil.
I also have looked at UOA's section an compiled a spreadsheet of 75 UOA's from oils used in (mostly) BMW engines, M52 series and later. Frankly, there is a lot of variability in results, and in cases where folks have been oil hopping every change, the results seem to say a lot more about the engine than the oil. Generally speaking though, I see no clear evidence based on UOA's that any of the oil brands you listed offer any statisically meaningful benefit or harm.
So by my point of view, the choice is pretty straightforward, either choose an oil that:
(1) has had its chemical properties and performance tested and approved by API, ACEA, BMW, MB, and likely others
- or -
(2) an oil that carries no independent test certifications and offers no apparent offsetting properties in performance or price
I can really see no advantage in trading the sure thing of choice 1 for the uncertainty inherent in choice 2. Others of course will feel differently, such as the league of mixologists around here.
An oil's API or ACEA rating provides me with certain specific information about an oil. Whether an oil is SJ, SL, or SM rated provides distinguishing information. Likewise, an oil's ACEA rating provides additional information about the oils properties.
Manufacturer's ratings provide additional information. If an oil is BMW approved, I know it has been met specific test requirements deliniated by BMW. Same for Mercedes, which reportly has 56 specific test criteria for the oil.
I also have looked at UOA's section an compiled a spreadsheet of 75 UOA's from oils used in (mostly) BMW engines, M52 series and later. Frankly, there is a lot of variability in results, and in cases where folks have been oil hopping every change, the results seem to say a lot more about the engine than the oil. Generally speaking though, I see no clear evidence based on UOA's that any of the oil brands you listed offer any statisically meaningful benefit or harm.
So by my point of view, the choice is pretty straightforward, either choose an oil that:
(1) has had its chemical properties and performance tested and approved by API, ACEA, BMW, MB, and likely others
- or -
(2) an oil that carries no independent test certifications and offers no apparent offsetting properties in performance or price
I can really see no advantage in trading the sure thing of choice 1 for the uncertainty inherent in choice 2. Others of course will feel differently, such as the league of mixologists around here.
Originally Posted By: jpr
So by my point of view, the choice is pretty straightforward, either choose an oil that:
(1) has had its chemical properties and performance tested and approved by API, ACE, BMW, MB, and likely others
- or -
(2) an oil that carries no independent test certifications and offers no apparent offsetting properties in performance or price
I can really see no advantage in trading the sure thing of choice 1 for the uncertainty inherent in choice 2. Others of course will feel differently, such as the league of mixologists around here.
Like I have said above, the reason that you can not see any advantage with non API/ACEA/etc oil is that you do not look beyond the manufacturer recommendation for warranty purposes. Your choice in item 1 is to basically maintain your engine warranty, no more no less. No one compete professionally with their factory stock Corvette, Viper, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. is using OEM recommended oils for those car, why? Redline, Amsoil, Klotz etc. have extensive racing programs to develop and test their oils and their oils will outperform any OEM recommended oils, albeit at a higher price point. Redline race oil will outperform pretty much any OEM street oil on the market, and their street oil IS their race oil plus detergent. No OEM oil has ever given me better fuel mileage than Redline and you would not know it unless you have tried it. The saving in fuel is more than made up for the increase in cost.
If all you want is to maintain your warranty then by all means follow the OEM recommended specifications. But, if you are looking at severe duty or extended OCI on your vehicles then the boutique oils are better choices, and you would not know it unless you abuse it. Take your daily driver to the track and see if it survive a full day of auto-cross on the OEM oil.
For a typical going to work car or grocery getter then I recommend either the Val Synpower or PP at $1/qt after rebate. For a high dollar toy car or a work horse I would recommend Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple, etc. for the added insurance.
So by my point of view, the choice is pretty straightforward, either choose an oil that:
(1) has had its chemical properties and performance tested and approved by API, ACE, BMW, MB, and likely others
- or -
(2) an oil that carries no independent test certifications and offers no apparent offsetting properties in performance or price
I can really see no advantage in trading the sure thing of choice 1 for the uncertainty inherent in choice 2. Others of course will feel differently, such as the league of mixologists around here.
Like I have said above, the reason that you can not see any advantage with non API/ACEA/etc oil is that you do not look beyond the manufacturer recommendation for warranty purposes. Your choice in item 1 is to basically maintain your engine warranty, no more no less. No one compete professionally with their factory stock Corvette, Viper, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. is using OEM recommended oils for those car, why? Redline, Amsoil, Klotz etc. have extensive racing programs to develop and test their oils and their oils will outperform any OEM recommended oils, albeit at a higher price point. Redline race oil will outperform pretty much any OEM street oil on the market, and their street oil IS their race oil plus detergent. No OEM oil has ever given me better fuel mileage than Redline and you would not know it unless you have tried it. The saving in fuel is more than made up for the increase in cost.
If all you want is to maintain your warranty then by all means follow the OEM recommended specifications. But, if you are looking at severe duty or extended OCI on your vehicles then the boutique oils are better choices, and you would not know it unless you abuse it. Take your daily driver to the track and see if it survive a full day of auto-cross on the OEM oil.
For a typical going to work car or grocery getter then I recommend either the Val Synpower or PP at $1/qt after rebate. For a high dollar toy car or a work horse I would recommend Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple, etc. for the added insurance.
We own an Outback Limited our dream vehicle. As soon as I purchased it I changed all the fluids to Redline as we will have this for decades. When we changed diff and g'box oils our mechanic said somebody had just changed them. No they had done 60,000kms. He doesn't believe me. Redline gives you what you pay for, and nothing less. My BMW I'm hoping to buy will get Redline withinn 72 hrs. Only Molakule's products I would put ahead and maybe NEO as possible equals.
to change the holden commodore v6 (ie buick v6 with 4L60E) over
Engine sump = 6L x $30/L= $180 (5L sump + 1L for top oil)
Auto Trans = 12L x $30/L = $360 (holds 8L + 4L min for flushing)
Differential = 2L x$30/L = $60
Power Steer = 2L x $30/L =$30 (allow 1L for flushing)
Total cost for fluids = $630 if you do it yourself
For mechanic's Labour = 0.5 + 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 2.5 hrs
Cost = 2.5hrs x $90/hour = $225
Total cost to change holden V6 (Buick) = $630 + $225 = $855
Big outlay upfront. Sprintman tell me where the sale is.
You must be in love with the cars.
Engine sump = 6L x $30/L= $180 (5L sump + 1L for top oil)
Auto Trans = 12L x $30/L = $360 (holds 8L + 4L min for flushing)
Differential = 2L x$30/L = $60
Power Steer = 2L x $30/L =$30 (allow 1L for flushing)
Total cost for fluids = $630 if you do it yourself
For mechanic's Labour = 0.5 + 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 2.5 hrs
Cost = 2.5hrs x $90/hour = $225
Total cost to change holden V6 (Buick) = $630 + $225 = $855
Big outlay upfront. Sprintman tell me where the sale is.
You must be in love with the cars.
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: jpr
So by my point of view, the choice is pretty straightforward, either choose an oil that:
(1) has had its chemical properties and performance tested and approved by API, ACE, BMW, MB, and likely others
- or -
(2) an oil that carries no independent test certifications and offers no apparent offsetting properties in performance or price
I can really see no advantage in trading the sure thing of choice 1 for the uncertainty inherent in choice 2. Others of course will feel differently, such as the league of mixologists around here.
Like I have said above, the reason that you can not see any advantage with non API/ACEA/etc oil is that you do not look beyond the manufacturer recommendation for warranty purposes. Your choice in item 1 is to basically maintain your engine warranty, no more no less. No one compete professionally with their factory stock Corvette, Viper, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. is using OEM recommended oils for those car, why? Redline, Amsoil, Klotz etc. have extensive racing programs to develop and test their oils and their oils will outperform any OEM recommended oils, albeit at a higher price point. Redline race oil will outperform pretty much any OEM street oil on the market, and their street oil IS their race oil plus detergent. No OEM oil has ever given me better fuel mileage than Redline and you would not know it unless you have tried it. The saving in fuel is more than made up for the increase in cost.
If all you want is to maintain your warranty then by all means follow the OEM recommended specifications. But, if you are looking at severe duty or extended OCI on your vehicles then the boutique oils are better choices, and you would not know it unless you abuse it. Take your daily driver to the track and see if it survive a full day of auto-cross on the OEM oil.
For a typical going to work car or grocery getter then I recommend either the Val Synpower or PP at $1/qt after rebate. For a high dollar toy car or a work horse I would recommend Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple, etc. for the added insurance.
You seem awfully confident that you know more about my thinking that I do.
To get a few things out of the way -
* yes, race oils are different than street oils. They are subjected to different conditions and have different needs. The oil is typically also changed after each event.
* yes, the oil I'm talking about is humble "street" oil. Daily and year round use has it's own demands and conditions different from race oils, and I'm pretty sure there's more to it than simply dumping in some detergent
* I've made no mention of warranty concerns. Heck, my car has been out of warranty of about 5 years and 40k+ miles.
Perhaps I'm not a "hard-core" oil guy because I look at oil as something upon which I need but not want to spend money. Oil is just a tool to me, not a source of pride or prestige. While there is definitely a distinction between cheap tools and quality tools, once past a certain performance threshold, I see no value in having it gold plated.
My interest and opinions of oils is strictly data driven. An API certification supplies data. For example, if an oil is SM rated instead of SL, I know that it is required to have a phosphorous content between 0.06% and 0.08% and has a lower max deposit weight on the TEOST MHT-4 test. If it is ACEA A3 rated, I know it has a higher HTHS value than either the A1 or A5 oils.
In the case of either API or ACEA rating, I know that the oil has been subjected to a battery of both lab and engine tests and met the approval criteria. I may not know the exact test results, but I do know that properties of the oil, such as EOWTT, EOFT, gelation, oil/elastomer compatibility, chlorine content, volatilty, foaming tendencies, high temp deposits, cam wear, piston cleanliness, sludge formation, etc. have been deemed acceptable. Manufacturer's tests take this an additional step further, repeating many of the engine tests on their own equipment rather than the ASTM or CEC standard test engines. All in all, a whole lot of information is provided on an oil through just a few short acronyms.
The catch with the "boutique" oils is that comparable information is simply not available. They generally do not carry any ratings nor do they provide a comparable amount of data from which one could make their own evaluation. Generally speaking, the data they do provide is rarely independent, usually cherry-picked, and sometimes presented in a rather misleading fashion. And I simply do consider anecdotes, testimonials, celebrity endorsement, or "try it you'll like it" to be convincing arguments let alone data.
So when faced with a choice between oils about which I have data regarding their properties and performance and oils about which I have little to no such information, I see no compelling reason to accept that uncertainty. To my engineering mind, uncertainty means risk. To my management mind, the first rule of risk management is "accept no unnecessary risk." With the variety of high quality oils out there that do carry certifications and approvals, it's just simply not necessary to consider those that don't.
Originally Posted By: jpr
So by my point of view, the choice is pretty straightforward, either choose an oil that:
(1) has had its chemical properties and performance tested and approved by API, ACE, BMW, MB, and likely others
- or -
(2) an oil that carries no independent test certifications and offers no apparent offsetting properties in performance or price
I can really see no advantage in trading the sure thing of choice 1 for the uncertainty inherent in choice 2. Others of course will feel differently, such as the league of mixologists around here.
Like I have said above, the reason that you can not see any advantage with non API/ACEA/etc oil is that you do not look beyond the manufacturer recommendation for warranty purposes. Your choice in item 1 is to basically maintain your engine warranty, no more no less. No one compete professionally with their factory stock Corvette, Viper, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. is using OEM recommended oils for those car, why? Redline, Amsoil, Klotz etc. have extensive racing programs to develop and test their oils and their oils will outperform any OEM recommended oils, albeit at a higher price point. Redline race oil will outperform pretty much any OEM street oil on the market, and their street oil IS their race oil plus detergent. No OEM oil has ever given me better fuel mileage than Redline and you would not know it unless you have tried it. The saving in fuel is more than made up for the increase in cost.
If all you want is to maintain your warranty then by all means follow the OEM recommended specifications. But, if you are looking at severe duty or extended OCI on your vehicles then the boutique oils are better choices, and you would not know it unless you abuse it. Take your daily driver to the track and see if it survive a full day of auto-cross on the OEM oil.
For a typical going to work car or grocery getter then I recommend either the Val Synpower or PP at $1/qt after rebate. For a high dollar toy car or a work horse I would recommend Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple, etc. for the added insurance.
You seem awfully confident that you know more about my thinking that I do.
To get a few things out of the way -
* yes, race oils are different than street oils. They are subjected to different conditions and have different needs. The oil is typically also changed after each event.
* yes, the oil I'm talking about is humble "street" oil. Daily and year round use has it's own demands and conditions different from race oils, and I'm pretty sure there's more to it than simply dumping in some detergent
* I've made no mention of warranty concerns. Heck, my car has been out of warranty of about 5 years and 40k+ miles.
Perhaps I'm not a "hard-core" oil guy because I look at oil as something upon which I need but not want to spend money. Oil is just a tool to me, not a source of pride or prestige. While there is definitely a distinction between cheap tools and quality tools, once past a certain performance threshold, I see no value in having it gold plated.
My interest and opinions of oils is strictly data driven. An API certification supplies data. For example, if an oil is SM rated instead of SL, I know that it is required to have a phosphorous content between 0.06% and 0.08% and has a lower max deposit weight on the TEOST MHT-4 test. If it is ACEA A3 rated, I know it has a higher HTHS value than either the A1 or A5 oils.
In the case of either API or ACEA rating, I know that the oil has been subjected to a battery of both lab and engine tests and met the approval criteria. I may not know the exact test results, but I do know that properties of the oil, such as EOWTT, EOFT, gelation, oil/elastomer compatibility, chlorine content, volatilty, foaming tendencies, high temp deposits, cam wear, piston cleanliness, sludge formation, etc. have been deemed acceptable. Manufacturer's tests take this an additional step further, repeating many of the engine tests on their own equipment rather than the ASTM or CEC standard test engines. All in all, a whole lot of information is provided on an oil through just a few short acronyms.
The catch with the "boutique" oils is that comparable information is simply not available. They generally do not carry any ratings nor do they provide a comparable amount of data from which one could make their own evaluation. Generally speaking, the data they do provide is rarely independent, usually cherry-picked, and sometimes presented in a rather misleading fashion. And I simply do consider anecdotes, testimonials, celebrity endorsement, or "try it you'll like it" to be convincing arguments let alone data.
So when faced with a choice between oils about which I have data regarding their properties and performance and oils about which I have little to no such information, I see no compelling reason to accept that uncertainty. To my engineering mind, uncertainty means risk. To my management mind, the first rule of risk management is "accept no unnecessary risk." With the variety of high quality oils out there that do carry certifications and approvals, it's just simply not necessary to consider those that don't.
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Originally Posted By: jpr
To get a few things out of the way -
* yes, race oils are different than street oils. They are subjected to different conditions and have different needs. The oil is typically also changed after each event.
* yes, the oil I'm talking about is humble "street" oil. Daily and year round use has it's own demands and conditions different from race oils, and I'm pretty sure there's more to it than simply dumping in some detergent
* I've made no mention of warranty concerns. Heck, my car has been out of warranty of about 5 years and 40k+ miles.
Perhaps I'm not a "hard-core" oil guy because I look at oil as something upon which I need but not want to spend money. Oil is just a tool to me, not a source of pride or prestige. While there is definitely a distinction between cheap tools and quality tools, once past a certain performance threshold, I see no value in having it gold plated.
My interest and opinions of oils is strictly data driven. An API certification supplies data. For example, if an oil is SM rated instead of SL, I know that it is required to have a phosphorous content between 0.06% and 0.08% and has a lower max deposit weight on the TEOST MHT-4 test. If it is ACEA A3 rated, I know it has a higher HTHS value than either the A1 or A5 oils.
In the case of either API or ACEA rating, I know that the oil has been subjected to a battery of both lab and engine tests and met the approval criteria. I may not know the exact test results, but I do know that properties of the oil, such as EOWTT, EOFT, gelation, oil/elastomer compatibility, chlorine content, volatilty, foaming tendencies, high temp deposits, cam wear, piston cleanliness, sludge formation, etc. have been deemed acceptable. Manufacturer's tests take this an additional step further, repeating many of the engine tests on their own equipment rather than the ASTM or CEC standard test engines. All in all, a whole lot of information is provided on an oil through just a few short acronyms.
The catch with the "boutique" oils is that comparable information is simply not available. They generally do not carry any ratings nor do they provide a comparable amount of data from which one could make their own evaluation. Generally speaking, the data they do provide is rarely independent, usually cherry-picked, and sometimes presented in a rather misleading fashion. And I simply do consider anecdotes, testimonials, celebrity endorsement, or "try it you'll like it" to be convincing arguments let alone data.
So when faced with a choice between oils about which I have data regarding their properties and performance and oils about which I have little to no such information, I see no compelling reason to accept that uncertainty. To my engineering mind, uncertainty means risk. To my management mind, the first rule of risk management is "accept no unnecessary risk." With the variety of high quality oils out there that do carry certifications and approvals, it's just simply not necessary to consider those that don't.
Whether you care about your car warranty or not does not negate the fact that API/ACEA/ect. specs were desinged to maintain an engine warranty. It is not necessary the best oil there is for your engine. Redline street oil is their race oil (confirmed by Redline) with detergent so their performance are practically the same, i.e. better than any oem "street" oil that you can think off. Royal Purple XPR oil are also race/street capable. Also, you do not need to change RedLine street oil or RP XPR after each event. You can leave it in for the normal OCI.
Valvoline advertised publicly that their Synpower is VW-505 equivalent way before it was certified by VW. Valvoline does it by qualification via similarity. Many drivers, myself included, bought this oil because we believe in Valvoline's performance. People buy Redline/Amsoil/etc. also believe in those companies. The boutique oil companies do not cater to the general public like you, they are geared toward severe duty users like racers and off-roaders and high end automobiles.
If you look at oil as something upon which you need but not want to spend money then Synpower and PP on sale are all you need. Don't waste your time trying to understand the boutique oils, UOA, extended OCI, etc. Heck, I'm not even sure why you want to be on this forum since all you need to do is to follow the owner manual of your vehicles.
To get a few things out of the way -
* yes, race oils are different than street oils. They are subjected to different conditions and have different needs. The oil is typically also changed after each event.
* yes, the oil I'm talking about is humble "street" oil. Daily and year round use has it's own demands and conditions different from race oils, and I'm pretty sure there's more to it than simply dumping in some detergent
* I've made no mention of warranty concerns. Heck, my car has been out of warranty of about 5 years and 40k+ miles.
Perhaps I'm not a "hard-core" oil guy because I look at oil as something upon which I need but not want to spend money. Oil is just a tool to me, not a source of pride or prestige. While there is definitely a distinction between cheap tools and quality tools, once past a certain performance threshold, I see no value in having it gold plated.
My interest and opinions of oils is strictly data driven. An API certification supplies data. For example, if an oil is SM rated instead of SL, I know that it is required to have a phosphorous content between 0.06% and 0.08% and has a lower max deposit weight on the TEOST MHT-4 test. If it is ACEA A3 rated, I know it has a higher HTHS value than either the A1 or A5 oils.
In the case of either API or ACEA rating, I know that the oil has been subjected to a battery of both lab and engine tests and met the approval criteria. I may not know the exact test results, but I do know that properties of the oil, such as EOWTT, EOFT, gelation, oil/elastomer compatibility, chlorine content, volatilty, foaming tendencies, high temp deposits, cam wear, piston cleanliness, sludge formation, etc. have been deemed acceptable. Manufacturer's tests take this an additional step further, repeating many of the engine tests on their own equipment rather than the ASTM or CEC standard test engines. All in all, a whole lot of information is provided on an oil through just a few short acronyms.
The catch with the "boutique" oils is that comparable information is simply not available. They generally do not carry any ratings nor do they provide a comparable amount of data from which one could make their own evaluation. Generally speaking, the data they do provide is rarely independent, usually cherry-picked, and sometimes presented in a rather misleading fashion. And I simply do consider anecdotes, testimonials, celebrity endorsement, or "try it you'll like it" to be convincing arguments let alone data.
So when faced with a choice between oils about which I have data regarding their properties and performance and oils about which I have little to no such information, I see no compelling reason to accept that uncertainty. To my engineering mind, uncertainty means risk. To my management mind, the first rule of risk management is "accept no unnecessary risk." With the variety of high quality oils out there that do carry certifications and approvals, it's just simply not necessary to consider those that don't.
Whether you care about your car warranty or not does not negate the fact that API/ACEA/ect. specs were desinged to maintain an engine warranty. It is not necessary the best oil there is for your engine. Redline street oil is their race oil (confirmed by Redline) with detergent so their performance are practically the same, i.e. better than any oem "street" oil that you can think off. Royal Purple XPR oil are also race/street capable. Also, you do not need to change RedLine street oil or RP XPR after each event. You can leave it in for the normal OCI.
Valvoline advertised publicly that their Synpower is VW-505 equivalent way before it was certified by VW. Valvoline does it by qualification via similarity. Many drivers, myself included, bought this oil because we believe in Valvoline's performance. People buy Redline/Amsoil/etc. also believe in those companies. The boutique oil companies do not cater to the general public like you, they are geared toward severe duty users like racers and off-roaders and high end automobiles.
If you look at oil as something upon which you need but not want to spend money then Synpower and PP on sale are all you need. Don't waste your time trying to understand the boutique oils, UOA, extended OCI, etc. Heck, I'm not even sure why you want to be on this forum since all you need to do is to follow the owner manual of your vehicles.
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Redline, Amsoil, Klotz etc. have extensive racing programs to develop and test their oils and their oils will outperform any OEM recommended oils, albeit at a higher price point. Redline race oil will outperform pretty much any OEM street oil on the market, and their street oil IS their race oil plus detergent. No OEM oil has ever given me better fuel mileage than Redline and you would not know it unless you have tried it. The saving in fuel is more than made up for the increase in cost.
I disagree. Amsoil is the only boutique oil I would trust for meeting a particular spec. The others are so vague they are not worth even using in some instances. The differences between most oils is very marginal.
I don't think Redline is any better than Mobil 1 for street applications. I also don't think it will give you better mpg. HT/HS is related to mpg and that is why Mobil 1 for years has had a lower HT/HS IMO and why Amsoil has lowered all of their oils in the HT/HS department. (ASL/ATM/AFL/SSO). In engines that need high shear stability, RL might offer benefits.
Redline, Amsoil, Klotz etc. have extensive racing programs to develop and test their oils and their oils will outperform any OEM recommended oils, albeit at a higher price point. Redline race oil will outperform pretty much any OEM street oil on the market, and their street oil IS their race oil plus detergent. No OEM oil has ever given me better fuel mileage than Redline and you would not know it unless you have tried it. The saving in fuel is more than made up for the increase in cost.
I disagree. Amsoil is the only boutique oil I would trust for meeting a particular spec. The others are so vague they are not worth even using in some instances. The differences between most oils is very marginal.
I don't think Redline is any better than Mobil 1 for street applications. I also don't think it will give you better mpg. HT/HS is related to mpg and that is why Mobil 1 for years has had a lower HT/HS IMO and why Amsoil has lowered all of their oils in the HT/HS department. (ASL/ATM/AFL/SSO). In engines that need high shear stability, RL might offer benefits.
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