an aol add, that makes a car run on water?

[ziggy]

Here's an interesting website i found....
http://easywatercar.com/2books.htm?hop=cyprusmete
FOr about $90, you buy a large catch can, that you instlal under the hood, and fill with distilled water and some baking soda, and connect to car battery... claims you are covnerting your gasoline car, into a hybrid... milaege gians can exceed 60 mph...
what does al and everyone make of this? something worthy? or pure junk?

 

[Shannow]

entropy in a can.

Look up the Joe Cell...when it's "charged", you don't even need it hooked to the battery.

 

[Schmoe]

I scanned the nomenclature. Not sure about the HHO chemistry. Hydrogen gas is highly flammable. I can't imagine that this thing can put out that much gas that quickly to be beneficial to the engine. It also bypasses a lot of the computer sensors so the engine only computes and sees "gas." Now enter another entity, how can the computer know how to compensate for that and then back off the fuel flow, which THEN would translate into actual fuel savings. In some parts of the world, water is in more need than fuel....

 

[Quest]

lol! H2O is formed by ionic bond, so strong that it takes a considerable amount of energy before you can break the hydrogen off before you can extract gas (remember: Newton's law at play here)

Besides, what good is it anyways (just a tad of H2 gas extracted off of 1 quart of water, jeeze!)

No wonder this world is littered with all sorts of idiotic garbage: from magnetic fuel atomiser to gawd-knows-what....and fools part their hard-earned mullahs to these scammers just for the sake of jumping into the bandwagon.

IMHO the best way to improve gas mileage is to shed some human cargo weight, this gain is absolutely guaranteed and no need to throw in mullahs for those useless gadgets. Best of all, it doesn't even have to go through EPA to begin with.

My 2c's worth. No mileages for me (I'm on a diet)

Q.

 

[ziggy]

I see, so the verdict is, its garbage!! Geesh, i was kinda wanting to try it out too.

 

[Schmoe]

There is some science to this, actually. It made me curious so I did some research. Not exactly garbage, but some validity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen#_note-RS#_note-RS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen#_note-RS#_note-RS

 

[Schmoe]

hydrogen effects the burn rate of fuels and lean combustion capabilities of internal combustion engines.[8][9][10] Fuel Enhancement systems are designed "to feed the hydrogen and oxygen gases directly to an internal combustion engine without intermediate storage".[11] For Diesel applications; "When the hydrogen enriched air is compressed, the diesel fuel is introduced with a resulting improvement in fuel efficiency and maximized combustion of the fuel".[12] Fuel enhancement has the potential to substantially reduce pollution emissions of internal combustion engines; research in 2004 concluded that "HC-emissions as well as NOx-emissions could be reduced to near zero".[13] A 50% reduction in gasoline consumption, at idle, was reported by numerically analyzing "the effect of hydrogen enriched gasoline on the performance, emissions and fuel consumption of a small spark-ignition engine".[14] When Brown's Gas burns it forms water, resulting in cooling the combustion chambers of engines, effectively allowing for greater compression ratios (see: Water injection). Hydrogen "addition can guarantee a regular running", of the engine "with many advantages in terms of emissions levels and fuel consumption reduction".[13] Hydrogen fuel enhancement can be optimized by implementing established lean burn concepts, and at minimum to achieve an actual increase in gas mileage the air/fuel ratio needs appropriate modification.[9][8][13][15] "Overall, increases in engine efficiency are more dominant than the energy loss incurred in generating hydrogen, resulting in improved fuel economy for the system as a whole".[9] This is supported by computational analysis that "has marked the possibility of operating with high air overabundance (lean or ultra-lean mixtures) without a performance decrease, but with great advantages on pollution emissions and fuel consumption".[14]

 

[Quest]

Schmoe,

I still stand on the fact that this is too good to be true, citing the rather "inefficient" means of generating hydrogen by electrolysis in order to be fed as "Brown's gas" into the system.

Yes, while academic fields agreed to the fact that brown's gas has huge potentials when mixed with diesel or LPG in providing an optimal combustion efficiency, the trouble I see is that this device is too "crude" (without proper metering device and such for the retrofit for various vehicle models and engine types) to be able to provide precise, yet consistent research quality results to be proven.

Afterall: Hydrogen gas isn't free so it has to come from a converted form one way or the other. Whether it comes from breaking down of natural gas or home electrolysis or even an onboard miniaturised electrolysis can, the energy conversion still comes as a net loss in energy (can't beat the 2nd law of thermaldynamics where it describes as "there's no free lunch" during energy conversion). In other words: the net energy obtained from electrolysis to break down water into Hydrogen gas and Oxygen gas shall be less than that of what is fed as a form of electrical energy input (the loss energy comes as heat).

In the interests of global energy conservation, improvments , conversion efficiency, etc. I still don't see the subject of introduction of HHO or Brown's gas (or even H2 gas, just for the sake of argument) being put through proper researches and tests by various scientific disciplines, inclusive of SAE or even various academic institutions, especially in the field of automotive developments.

Also: the main subject of Hydrogen Economy prevails throughout the entire course of this discussion, which concerns me right from the beginning.... (yes, there's 2 sides of the story here at play)

Reference:

Physics Today July 2004:

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-7/p47.html

Energy Conversion and laws of thermaldynamics:

http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/Mod1/Rules/ThermoLaws.htm

Lastly, Hydrogen Economy by electrolysis and such:

Topic: "why a hydrogen economy doesn't make sense"

http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html


Bottomline: pure hydrogen as a form of energy for automotive sounds promising, but a mixture of HC with Hydrogen gas (or brown's gas, HHO, etc.)to reduce NOx tends to be a bit on the far-fetched side of things for you still cannot resolve the fundamental problems of non stoichiometric form of burning (which means incorrect fuel-air ratio) that can still lead to excessive CO production (rich/lean or misfiring), CO2 (ideal combustion but a byproduct of burning HC) or NOx (ideal combustion but NOx is inevitable). Expensive and complicated catalytic conversion of these gases is still required and the rather crude and un-disciplined electrolysis can and conversion into an existing hydrocarbon burning EFI gasoline/diesel automobiles from the original poster's site still sounds too good to be true.

That also reminded me of one of the Mythbusters episode where the guys introduced Hydrogen gas into the carburettor side of a car, and it didn't work very well.

My 2 cents worth. This subject is becoming more and more interesting....

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: Quest
lol! H2O is formed by ionic bond, so strong that it takes a considerable amount of energy before you can break the hydrogen off before you can extract gas (remember: Newton's law at play here)


My bad on this one: correction:

It should be laws of thermaldynamics and not Newton's law

Q.

 

[Vilan]

Make hydrogen gas in the comfort of your living room with a cup of water, two paper clips and a 9 volt battery!

Linky

Note this bit near the bottom...

"Quite often you will see [ads] that lead to companies selling devices designed to improve your gas mileage by somehow injecting hydrogen into the gas stream. I think it's pretty safe to say that these devices do not work. You can't get out more energy than you put in, period."

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[Schmoe]

I know all that, but the interesting thing to me is magnecules. This is a relatively new and unexplored field. You ever hold two magnets' north ends and feel them repel each other? If there was some way you could use that repeling energy. It's almost free.

 

[Quest]

Schmoe,

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? That reminds me of meg-lev trains that the only main obstacle to overcome is the friction in air drag.

Good day!

Q.

 

[Jeff70]

Quest,

heres a bit of the evidence for ya....

[0120] As we shall see below, "all" the above predicted magnecular clusters have been identified experimentally, thus confirming the representation of the chemical structure of the HHO combustible gas with the symbol H.sub.mO.sub.n where m and n assume integer values with the exception of both m and n being 0.

[0121] The above definition of the HHO gas establishes its dramatic difference with the Brown gas in a final form.

Outline of the Experimental Evidence:

[0122] On Jun. 30, 2003, scientific measurements on the specific weight of the HHO gas were conducted at Adsorption Research Laboratory in Dublin, Ohio. The resultant value was 12.3 grams per mole. The same laboratory repeated the measurement on a different sample of the gas and confirmed the result.

[0123] The released value of 12.3 grams per mole is anomalous. The general expectation is that the HHO gas consist of a mixture of H2 and O2 gases since the gas is produced from water. This implies a mixture of H2 and O2 with the specific weight (2+2+32)/3=11.3 grams per mole corresponding to a gas that is composed in volume of 66.66% H2 and 33.33% O2.

Heres the link again.... http://www.rexresearch.com/klein/klein1.htm

I truly believe that this Klein guy is on to something as I am about half done with my ACS (professional chemistry) degree. I have taken 27 sem. hours of Chem so far and this is very interesting stuff.....and you can bet I'm gonna try and get my professor to try it in the lab; this might just be a great senior thesis project.

And why do you link a Phy.org site when the ACS would be the authority on something like this......

So please quit refering to HHO as browns gas or hydrogen because it is not either. Its an anomaly as of now and they are only speculating as to why it happened.

 

[XS650]

Jeff70,

You are quoting a patent application as evidence

A patent application isn't evidence. Countless scams have gone beyond that and been patented.

 

[Jeff70]

XS 650,

the Research lab in Ohio is a scam????? They are the one's who discovered the mass not the inventor

 

[Quest]

Jeff,

Thanks for the input on this matter. I'm just loosely quoting the HHO part (or referring to the original poster's link on Brown's gas) to carry on with the conversation. I personally still challenge the validity of the original postings and the way I see it, there's no way on earth a home made jam jar electrolysis will be able to create enough Hydrogen gas to sufficiently create a stir in drasatically improving a late model EFI car, nor the "observation" is consistent/significant enough that none of the scientific researchers in the automotive industry field wouldn't take notice afterall.


Also: I don't believe in any or most of the "so-called" patents filed these days for some of them are simply flawed or regurgitated materials that the US patent office simply does not have the time, resource to reference check (thus all these bogus patents filed these days).

Bottomline: with all the hooplahs on Hydrogen gas, etc. I still stand of the fact that based on (a) laws of thermaldynamics, there's no free lunch in this world and (b)an unmetered, un-tested, experiment such as a jam jar electrolysis add-on w/o proper research-quality displine.

People are so naive these days, they will literally fall for scams that can be as silly as magnetic fuel line atomiser or something that will align the gas molecules for better burning....and then there's the automobile industry conspiracy for not making a better car.....

My 2c's worth.

Q.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Jeff70
XS 650,

the Research lab in Ohio is a scam????? They are the one's who discovered the mass not the inventor


Please share the lab's report with us, not a quote of a patent application made by someone else.

 

[Vilan]

Originally Posted By: Jeff70
[0123] The released value of 12.3 grams per mole is anomalous. The general expectation is that the HHO gas consist of a mixture of H2 and O2 gases since the gas is produced from water. This implies a mixture of H2 and O2 with the specific weight (2+2+32)/3=11.3 grams per mole corresponding to a gas that is composed in volume of 66.66% H2 and 33.33% O2.


Er, (2+2+32)/3 = 12, not 11.3. If that kind of math makes it into a patent application, I have serious worries.

And 12 seems close enough to 12.3 to not worry about it. Depending on the accuracy of the test, which they don't mention. Maybe their instruments have a +/- 0.3 gram/mole error range.

 

[Pablo]

Rounding error.

 

[Schmoe]

See? That was my point. This is something new and relatively unexplored. I think it warrants more research. There may be some magnetic properties coming into play here as water has a positive charge. Wonder if there is some play with cold fusion. Eistein proved it with E=MC2. Everything has a huge amount of energy, getting it to release controllably is the issue. Something akin to Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future.