Calling all 2 stroke oil chemists

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pwr2tow

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O.K. I've come here to find conclusive proof since that's what this site is suppose to be about.

Will 2 stroke oil added to diesel in a high pressure (25,000 psi) system such as that in a dodge cummins cp3 or chevy duramax cp3 injection system harm any component within that injection system?
Will it harm the cp3, injectors, fuel rail, sensors.

Will the combustion process in a high compression ratio engine affect burn characteristics or produce any harmful effects within the combustion chamber?

I want proof or at least documented science reports of good or bad about using 2 stroke oil in this system.

Could care less about brother, father, old truckers, etc etc. I want to know what's in 2 stroke oil that can harm or help this High pressure fuel system.

Thank You for your time and hopefully we can put this myth or reality to rest.

Thanks,
Ron
 
Calm down. To what myth are you referring? Did you read something on another thread and have an argument going?

Much depends on how much you add.

Most 2-cycle oils would simply add a touch of upper cylinder lubrication to the fuel. A synthetic 2-cycle oil usually has a lower ash AW additive, whereas the cheaper OTS 2-cycle oils have a higher level of ash content.

In cold weather, I would not add anything but anti-gel since 2-cycle oil might raise the gel temp of the fuel.
 
You want good information - it doesnt get better than what Molakule adds to the forum.

JMH
 
ULSD does not have enough lubrication to meet the standards that manufacturers have established as "desired". There was a study about additives and how they affect the lubrication of diesel fuel. I don't have a link to the specific article, but I had this chart.

http://www.rocketcityrockcrawlers.com/bi...udy_Summary.jpg

One of the additives was two stroke oil, not much at 200:1, but it did provide a positive affect on bringing the ULSD to the desired lubrication level.
 
LubricityStudy.JPG
 
Yah, Yah, Yah, I know all about the hear say from guys and gals. 2 stroke oil is made to lubricate, it's no surprise it would be high on the lubrication scale.

I'am going to copy and paste something I wrote on a different website.
(quote) Well lets think about this.
The diesel fuel additives are made to burn off in a diesel combustion cylinder so I don't think we run the risk of anything harmful. Solvents are used to help clean the injectors. Since the rest is designed for diesel application I would assume it will not harm the engine.

Yah, solvents will vaporize, there made to do that. Will your 2 stroke vaporize for complete combustion?

Take your 2 stroke engine oil and pour a 1/4 inch into a metal fry pan. Heat the fry pan with a torch or something that will heat to 1,500*F until your 2 stroke oil is gone. Tell what you see in the bottom of pan?


Does your 2 stroke engine run at 17:1 or higher compression ratio? What' the by product on 2 stroke that could be forced between the lands and grooves at that high of a compression in a diesel engine?

Does your 2 stroke engine piston crowns run in excess of 1,500*F? What happens to 2 stroke oil at those compression ratios and heat temperatures? This can be for hours on end while towing.

The 2006 Dodge Cummins engine and I think newer use a exhaust valve clearance of .026 while the earlier ones used ,020. They hold more heat in the engine instead of using the valve as a heat sink. The 04.5 and newer trucks also run cylinder temperatures at higher level than previous engines. The 06 trucks can run as high as +1,600*F for short runs. They are also designed to run at 1,450*F for longer periods of time. What happens inside these engines?

Does the injection system on a 2 stroke engine run at +25,000 PSI? How big is the injector oiling hole in a 2 stroke engine? How big are the injector holes on a 2003-present day CR injector tip? Are the functions even the same? I doubt it.

In my older diesel I use to run all kinds of stuff in the fuel, 2 stroke oil, waste engine oil, automatic transmission fluid, axle fluid, filtered waste vegetable oil, compressor oil, any thing that said oil or petroleum related went into those diesel engines without problems. You will not find me putting any of those things in a Common rail fuel system.

I'am not claiming to know any of this except about the 2004.5 and newer trucks. Just using what I have learned and what my mind thinks could happen from learning how things operate over the years. Makes sense to me, maybe not to others. I'll wait until I can get defineative answers before using it on a Common Rail engine.

Not trying to push my ideas onto anyone, just trying to get people to open there minds to all aspects before reacting.

Thanks for listening.(quote)

Now show me the chemical compositions of the additives in 2 stroke oil.
 
I know Blendzall has acetone in it. Some are castor based. After that, I don't have many specifics.
 
1. mineral or synthetic base oils; synthetic base oils are usually a mixture of esters/PAO (of about a 30/70 ratio); some formulations use a fraction of biosyn or vegetable oils.
2. solvent (mainly in mineral-based oils)
3. anti-wear additives
4. lubricity agent
5. succinimide dispersant
6. combustion improver additives
7. anti-rust/anti-corrosion additive
8. anti-scuff additive

If you are not familiar with additives, go down to "Science and Technology of Lubricants and Additives" and look for "Multifunctional additives."

If you use it at 200:1 to 640:1 or less, I don't see any problems.

AT the temps and compression ratios of diesels, the engine would see the two-cycle molecules as a spec in the universe.
 
"How big is the injector oiling hole in a 2 stroke engine? How big are the injector holes on a 2003-present day CR injector tip?"

A ridiculous comparison and non-sequitor.

"Not trying to push my ideas onto anyone, just trying to get people to open there minds to all aspects before reacting."

And that goes for the questioner as well.
 
Originally Posted By: pwr2tow
O.K. I've come here to find conclusive proof since that's what this site is suppose to be about.

Will 2 stroke oil added to diesel in a high pressure (25,000 psi) system such as that in a dodge cummins cp3 or chevy duramax cp3 injection system harm any component within that injection system?

NO
Will it harm the cp3, injectors, fuel rail, sensors.

NO

Will the combustion process in a high compression ratio engine affect burn characteristics or produce any harmful effects within the combustion chamber?


Maybe Depends WHAT TYPE 2 stroke SOME are ASHLESS some have ASH formig additives the ash forming additives WILL contribute to
CC deposits which could affect BURN and "detonation" If you added a 2 stroke OIL use the "ashless" ones.

I want proof or at least documented science reports of good or bad about using 2 stroke oil in this system.

No time to post all the references for you find it for you web search BUT do not believe half of what is on the net. I come from 30+ years at this.

Could care less about brother, father, old truckers, etc etc. I want to know what's in 2 stroke oil that can harm or help this High pressure fuel system.

Harm of help? IMHO not needed Tho ULSD May need some help for injector/Pump lubrication requirments I would do what Cummins says as far as aftermarket additives and as such 2 stroke oils May NOT I think be on there approval list.
Thank You for your time and hopefully we can put this myth or reality to rest.

Thanks,
Ron
 
Great stuff from Mola and Bruce.....sometimes you just need to be careful what you ask for.

I'm no chemist.....well actually I am...but not a practicing formulating chemist, nor am I a combustion expert.

I have a question, though, that may help.

I am somewhat familiar with how the combustion takes place in a 2-stroke spark gasoline engine with a fuel/oil premix. Air/Fuel/oil vapor enters as exhaust leaves, Air/Fuel/oil vapor is compressed and the properly formulated oil begins to condense out of the vapor, to lubricate, then spark happens, BLAMMO!! The fuel-air combusts (I'm sure some oil combusts but not as much as people think) forcing the piston down and oil as well, and exhaust leaves……

NOW a 4 stroke diesel with VERY high compression ratios, doesn't the 2-stroke oil condense out of the fuel/air vapor under pressure as well? (Not out of liquid fuel
 
Quote:
If you added a 2 stroke OIL use the "ashless" ones

Makes for an easy question...what 2 stroke oils are ashless? I've never had to deal with 2 strokes so my knowledge here is limited. I would assume that the ester based ones are the ticket here...?
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
NOW a 4 stroke diesel with VERY high compression ratios, doesn't the 2-stroke oil condense out of the fuel/air vapor under pressure as well? (Not out of liquid fuel


In a diesel, you have air and you have fuel. Neither will combust until there is a local area of air/fuel that is at a ratio that will support combustion.

We were taught that in a classic diesel, the fuel evaporates and diffuses into the hot air. As soon as combustion is possible, it happens. More evaporates, more diffusion etc until it's burned. All of the air isn't "accessible" to the fuel, so the smoke limit is around 0.9 of stoichiometric.

Modern diesels use higher pressures and better nozzles to spread the fuel out better.

In short, I doubt very much two stroke oil makes it anywhere near the chamber walls.
 
"NOW a 4 stroke diesel with VERY high compression ratios, doesn't the 2-stroke oil condense out of the fuel/air vapor under pressure as well? (Not out of liquid fuel)"

SInce the 2-cycle oil is part of the fuel, it gets combusted along with the fuel.

Condensation generally requires a reduction in pressure and or temperaqture.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
"NOW a 4 stroke diesel with VERY high compression ratios, doesn't the 2-stroke oil condense out of the fuel/air vapor under pressure as well? (Not out of liquid fuel)"

SInce the 2-cycle oil is part of the fuel, it gets combusted along with the fuel.

Condensation generally requires a reduction in pressure and or temperaqture.


No actually condensation can happen with an increase in pressure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensation

A good reason you want decent cooling in your 2-stroke. You want some/most of the oil to NOT combust.

Back on topic though. If Shannow is correct (and it seems logical) that a diesel never actually has a fuel/air vapor as with gasoline - the lubricity is just in the liquid form of fuel. So a 2-stroke oil lubricates and burns.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo

No actually condensation can happen with an increase in pressure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensation



The link to wikipedia is about isothermal compression - the temperature of the compressed gas stays constant and vapors can turn to liquids. In an engine, you have adiabatic compression where the gas temperature rises as it's compressed, keeping gaseous liquids from condensing.

I think Mola's point is that regardless of whether the fuel vaporizes or remains as a fine spray of liquid as it enters the flame front, the lube component burns as the fuel burns.
 
Cummins used to spec up to a 5% oil-to-fuel ratio for burning used motor oil, and actually sold a used oil revovery system that automatically pumped used oil from the crankcase to the fuel tank and replentished it from a fresh oil source.

IIRC, it was a dealer-installed option.
 
You refer to the Centinel oil-recycler...

There is a bunch of reading about this on the diesel forums...I have read three things...

It does seem to burn fine, but some report a little extra blue smoke...

It does seem to lower gelling point of ULSD...

I seem to remember someone pulling injectors on a CRD and finding deposits on the tips, but that is not conclusive since you can have deposits from straight ULSD as well...

I ran it one time (two sequential tanks) and it dropped my mileage...

pwr2tow, I will PM you a link...
 
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