Thanks for the feedback. That's about my sense of it as well, and it's nice to know you share a similar logic. All in all, I just can't really see what's to gain by going outside the bounds BMW seems to have established.
BMW Longlife Approval Requirements?
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Originally Posted By: jpr
On the subject of viscosity, how far do you think is reasonable to stray from the OEM specs?
Speaking of viscosity, what do you guys think of BMWs recommendations for the older motors (pre-LL-xx)? They had a chart showing recommended viscosities for different ambient temps. For typical summer temps a 15w-40, 15w-50, or 20w-50 was specified. My take on it is that viscosity was more of a concern since only standard dino oil was required. Based on discussion in this thread, do you think it would be OK to substitute GC 0w-30 for a 20w-50 dino, even in 90 degree summer heat? Motors in question are a M20 6-cyl and a M60 V-8.
On the subject of viscosity, how far do you think is reasonable to stray from the OEM specs?
Speaking of viscosity, what do you guys think of BMWs recommendations for the older motors (pre-LL-xx)? They had a chart showing recommended viscosities for different ambient temps. For typical summer temps a 15w-40, 15w-50, or 20w-50 was specified. My take on it is that viscosity was more of a concern since only standard dino oil was required. Based on discussion in this thread, do you think it would be OK to substitute GC 0w-30 for a 20w-50 dino, even in 90 degree summer heat? Motors in question are a M20 6-cyl and a M60 V-8.
Originally Posted By: eliminator
Originally Posted By: jpr
On the subject of viscosity, how far do you think is reasonable to stray from the OEM specs?
Speaking of viscosity, what do you guys think of BMWs recommendations for the older motors (pre-LL-xx)? They had a chart showing recommended viscosities for different ambient temps. For typical summer temps a 15w-40, 15w-50, or 20w-50 was specified. My take on it is that viscosity was more of a concern since only standard dino oil was required. Based on discussion in this thread, do you think it would be OK to substitute GC 0w-30 for a 20w-50 dino, even in 90 degree summer heat? Motors in question are a M20 6-cyl and a M60 V-8.
I'll admit to being selfish having only really looked in depth at the oils for the newer engines. But looking at the "Special Oils" list in BMW's TIS (which applies to both the M20 and M60) their baseline BMW oil is an ACEA A3/B3, API SJ, 10W-40. Scanning the list of approved oils, they are all either 5W-XX or 10W-XX, with the vast majority being -40 (plus a few -50 and one -30). Theoretically, all the current BMW approved oils are retroactively compatible, but if it were my engines I'd feel much more comfortable sticking to at mid- to high range 40 with the lowest xW- I could find.
Originally Posted By: jpr
On the subject of viscosity, how far do you think is reasonable to stray from the OEM specs?
Speaking of viscosity, what do you guys think of BMWs recommendations for the older motors (pre-LL-xx)? They had a chart showing recommended viscosities for different ambient temps. For typical summer temps a 15w-40, 15w-50, or 20w-50 was specified. My take on it is that viscosity was more of a concern since only standard dino oil was required. Based on discussion in this thread, do you think it would be OK to substitute GC 0w-30 for a 20w-50 dino, even in 90 degree summer heat? Motors in question are a M20 6-cyl and a M60 V-8.
I'll admit to being selfish having only really looked in depth at the oils for the newer engines. But looking at the "Special Oils" list in BMW's TIS (which applies to both the M20 and M60) their baseline BMW oil is an ACEA A3/B3, API SJ, 10W-40. Scanning the list of approved oils, they are all either 5W-XX or 10W-XX, with the vast majority being -40 (plus a few -50 and one -30). Theoretically, all the current BMW approved oils are retroactively compatible, but if it were my engines I'd feel much more comfortable sticking to at mid- to high range 40 with the lowest xW- I could find.
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I have only run the BMW / Castrol 5w-30 and Castrol GC through my M54. I have run 4 track days, all the OUAs are posted here.
In the US BMWNA does not specify LL-01 for the E46 series.(non M)
From 2003 330Ci owners Manual:
"Use only approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil. If an approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil should be unavailable, you may use small amounts of other synthetic oils for topping up between oil changes. Use only oils with the specification API SH or higher Approved oils are in SAE classes 5W-40 and 5W-30. These kinds of oil may be used for driving in all ambient temperatures"
Not long after I purchased my BMW, I asked BMWNA what oils were "approved", here is the response:
"Castrol Synthetic, Mobil 1 Synthetic, and Valvoline High Performance Synthetic with a weight of SAE 5W-30 are all approved by BMW."
In the US BMWNA does not specify LL-01 for the E46 series.(non M)
From 2003 330Ci owners Manual:
"Use only approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil. If an approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil should be unavailable, you may use small amounts of other synthetic oils for topping up between oil changes. Use only oils with the specification API SH or higher Approved oils are in SAE classes 5W-40 and 5W-30. These kinds of oil may be used for driving in all ambient temperatures"
Not long after I purchased my BMW, I asked BMWNA what oils were "approved", here is the response:
"Castrol Synthetic, Mobil 1 Synthetic, and Valvoline High Performance Synthetic with a weight of SAE 5W-30 are all approved by BMW."
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Originally Posted By: shanneba
I have only run the BMW / Castrol 5w-30 and Castrol GC through my M54. I have run 4 track days, all the OUAs are posted here.
In the US BMWNA does not specify LL-01 for the E46 series.(non M)
From 2003 330Ci owners Manual:
"Use only approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil. If an approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil should be unavailable, you may use small amounts of other synthetic oils for topping up between oil changes. Use only oils with the specification API SH or higher Approved oils are in SAE classes 5W-40 and 5W-30. These kinds of oil may be used for driving in all ambient temperatures"
Not long after I purchased my BMW, I asked BMWNA what oils were "approved", here is the response:
"Castrol Synthetic, Mobil 1 Synthetic, and Valvoline High Performance Synthetic with a weight of SAE 5W-30 are all approved by BMW."
The Owner's manual, unfortunately, supplies incomplete information, as does the call center. For the real scoop, you need to look at the documents in the BMW TIS (Technical Information System). In there you will find a general deescription of the different approval standards, a table which cross-references engine type to oil spec, and detailed lists of each oil specifically approved under each spec.
You can find the first sections of it at the Opie Oils UK website, and I've posted all of it (albeit a somewhat dated, pre-LL04 version) over at E46Fanatics.
I have only run the BMW / Castrol 5w-30 and Castrol GC through my M54. I have run 4 track days, all the OUAs are posted here.
In the US BMWNA does not specify LL-01 for the E46 series.(non M)
From 2003 330Ci owners Manual:
"Use only approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil. If an approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil should be unavailable, you may use small amounts of other synthetic oils for topping up between oil changes. Use only oils with the specification API SH or higher Approved oils are in SAE classes 5W-40 and 5W-30. These kinds of oil may be used for driving in all ambient temperatures"
Not long after I purchased my BMW, I asked BMWNA what oils were "approved", here is the response:
"Castrol Synthetic, Mobil 1 Synthetic, and Valvoline High Performance Synthetic with a weight of SAE 5W-30 are all approved by BMW."
The Owner's manual, unfortunately, supplies incomplete information, as does the call center. For the real scoop, you need to look at the documents in the BMW TIS (Technical Information System). In there you will find a general deescription of the different approval standards, a table which cross-references engine type to oil spec, and detailed lists of each oil specifically approved under each spec.
You can find the first sections of it at the Opie Oils UK website, and I've posted all of it (albeit a somewhat dated, pre-LL04 version) over at E46Fanatics.
Okay, BMW Long Life Oil Gurus. I have a question about the BMW Castrol 5w-30 oil you get at the dealer. Is that a group III oil (which would be compatible with Auto-Rx rinse)? Or is it a group IV oil? Or does nobody know?
I've read a few posts suggesting that Mobil 1 0w-40 is group IV. Maybe German Castrol is, too. That Mobil 1 0w-40 seems to be highly regarded by Porsche and AMG, whatever group it is.
I've read a few posts suggesting that Mobil 1 0w-40 is group IV. Maybe German Castrol is, too. That Mobil 1 0w-40 seems to be highly regarded by Porsche and AMG, whatever group it is.
d00df00d: that's kind of what i thought about mobil 1 0w-40 and German Castrol. Interesting that BMW's own oil is perhaps the only group III oil we can buy that makes the cut.
I am a little surprised that Pennzoil Platinum hasn't made that list. It is also a group III, that seems to have some long drain potential.
BMW seems quite insistent on using their approved oils. It is something to consider in an auto-Rx rinse phase. Which I'll be performing (and perhaps posting some pics) in a month or two.
I am a little surprised that Pennzoil Platinum hasn't made that list. It is also a group III, that seems to have some long drain potential.
BMW seems quite insistent on using their approved oils. It is something to consider in an auto-Rx rinse phase. Which I'll be performing (and perhaps posting some pics) in a month or two.
Originally Posted By: Jett Rink
I am a little surprised that Pennzoil Platinum hasn't made that list. It is also a group III, that seems to have some long drain potential.
PP 5w-40 meets the BMW spec, although it's hard to find.
Other PP grades don't meet it because they have an HT/HS of less than 3.5.
I am a little surprised that Pennzoil Platinum hasn't made that list. It is also a group III, that seems to have some long drain potential.
PP 5w-40 meets the BMW spec, although it's hard to find.
Other PP grades don't meet it because they have an HT/HS of less than 3.5.
With regard to OEM Manufacturer Approvals, especially BMW, is that BMW managed to skirt the bulk of the oil issues which Mercedes had several years ago. They did that by putting oil changes and other maintenance operations in the confines of the manufacturer's new vehicle warranty. At that time, there were two different oils which BMW engines needed to live properly (dependent upon engine family designations), so making the oil changes be a part of the warranty coverage (as "no charge" provided maintenance) ensured that each respective engine got the correct viscosity and such which they needed. That small investment in additional warranty costs saved BMW massive amounts of money and prevented the negative publicity which Mercedes got.
From some of the VW forums I've looked at lately, there are posts about owners who did not know about the oil requirements and had engine "issues" (which had high pricetages on them). Issues from "sludge" to "failure", as I recall.
It might be human nature to try to skirt things and do something other than what's recommended by the manfuacturer, but in the case of European vehicles (even in the USA), getting oil in bottles from the respective dealership is insurance against future problems and who might end up paying for them IF they do happen.
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
From some of the VW forums I've looked at lately, there are posts about owners who did not know about the oil requirements and had engine "issues" (which had high pricetages on them). Issues from "sludge" to "failure", as I recall.
It might be human nature to try to skirt things and do something other than what's recommended by the manfuacturer, but in the case of European vehicles (even in the USA), getting oil in bottles from the respective dealership is insurance against future problems and who might end up paying for them IF they do happen.
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
Originally Posted By: Jett Rink
BMW seems quite insistent on using their approved oils. It is something to consider in an auto-Rx rinse phase. Which I'll be performing (and perhaps posting some pics) in a month or two.
It's really only a major factor at the rediculous OCIs that BMW also "recommends". I've done warm weather rinses on a couple of M62TU and M52 BMWs with a high quality 15W40 like Rotella-T or XD-3. These 15W40s don't have LL-01 stamps of approval, but certainly meet ACEA A3 and have no chance of interfering with ARX. In the latest case I used GTX 10W40 as the clean phase oil as well. There are many excellent BMW UOAs from GTX 10W40 running extended intervals, so I'm sure it will provide excellent protection (and ARX compatibility) during a clean phase.
Generally I'm a strong supporter of GC in most BMW engines under normal conditions.
BMW seems quite insistent on using their approved oils. It is something to consider in an auto-Rx rinse phase. Which I'll be performing (and perhaps posting some pics) in a month or two.
It's really only a major factor at the rediculous OCIs that BMW also "recommends". I've done warm weather rinses on a couple of M62TU and M52 BMWs with a high quality 15W40 like Rotella-T or XD-3. These 15W40s don't have LL-01 stamps of approval, but certainly meet ACEA A3 and have no chance of interfering with ARX. In the latest case I used GTX 10W40 as the clean phase oil as well. There are many excellent BMW UOAs from GTX 10W40 running extended intervals, so I'm sure it will provide excellent protection (and ARX compatibility) during a clean phase.
Generally I'm a strong supporter of GC in most BMW engines under normal conditions.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jett Rink
I am a little surprised that Pennzoil Platinum hasn't made that list. It is also a group III, that seems to have some long drain potential.
PP 5w-40 meets the BMW spec, although it's hard to find.
Other PP grades don't meet it because they have an HT/HS of less than 3.5.
As a matter of fact, it's so hard to find that it isn't even listed on Pennzoil's current technical data sheet (rev Sep 2007) The only oils listed on that sheet are 0W-20, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 5W-50, and 15W-50. Only the latter two are A3 and they are too thick to be Longlife oils.
I see where they list a "5W-40 Euro" as being available, and I've seen it listed for sale on some non-USA websites. But even then, it is never claimed to be BMW approved and when you click on the data sheet link, the 5W-40 does not appear.
Near as I can tell, 5W-40 is not a current Pennzoil Platinum product.
Originally Posted By: Jett Rink
I am a little surprised that Pennzoil Platinum hasn't made that list. It is also a group III, that seems to have some long drain potential.
PP 5w-40 meets the BMW spec, although it's hard to find.
Other PP grades don't meet it because they have an HT/HS of less than 3.5.
As a matter of fact, it's so hard to find that it isn't even listed on Pennzoil's current technical data sheet (rev Sep 2007) The only oils listed on that sheet are 0W-20, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 5W-50, and 15W-50. Only the latter two are A3 and they are too thick to be Longlife oils.
I see where they list a "5W-40 Euro" as being available, and I've seen it listed for sale on some non-USA websites. But even then, it is never claimed to be BMW approved and when you click on the data sheet link, the 5W-40 does not appear.
Near as I can tell, 5W-40 is not a current Pennzoil Platinum product.
Originally Posted By: jpr
Near as I can tell, 5W-40 is not a current Pennzoil Platinum product.
I know. It seems like they pulled all the info regarding it from their site. I have actually never seen this product anywhere, and my attempts of acquiring it via various distributors failed as well. Now it looks like they killed it altogether. A strange move, to say the least.
Near as I can tell, 5W-40 is not a current Pennzoil Platinum product.
I know. It seems like they pulled all the info regarding it from their site. I have actually never seen this product anywhere, and my attempts of acquiring it via various distributors failed as well. Now it looks like they killed it altogether. A strange move, to say the least.
There is a Shell/Pennzoil distributor about 5 miles from my front door. Being a true BITOGer, I've stopped off there, just to see what is what. They have a retail counter, but it is really no cheaper than elsewhere. You can get Pennzoil Platinum there in at least 5w-30 and 10w-30, but no 5w-40. When I asked them about 5w-40, they said they didn't have it and had not ever seen it, certainly not sold it.
Automakers seem to be moving to 5w-20, so that 5w-30 is what passes as "thick oil" these days.
That is why I didn't mention this oil earlier, when I speculated that "BMW's own oil is perhaps the only group III oil we can buy that makes the cut."
Craig in Canada: I've long used 15w-40 in an old E30. In fact, if I was to take it to the local BMW dealer for an oil change they themselves would put 15w-40 in there. It is what they use for all older BMWs. Some folks around here fear it is too thick for cold starts, but I've never had a problem with that.
For the DIY type looking to save a few dollars (particularly if you are looking to shorten up that 15,000 OCI)I have a hunch that Rotella Synthetic 5w-40 or Mobil 1 5w-40 might work pretty well in the newer BMWs. Those would be my makeup oils of choice, if I found myself needing to add a quart before a new change.
Automakers seem to be moving to 5w-20, so that 5w-30 is what passes as "thick oil" these days.
That is why I didn't mention this oil earlier, when I speculated that "BMW's own oil is perhaps the only group III oil we can buy that makes the cut."
Craig in Canada: I've long used 15w-40 in an old E30. In fact, if I was to take it to the local BMW dealer for an oil change they themselves would put 15w-40 in there. It is what they use for all older BMWs. Some folks around here fear it is too thick for cold starts, but I've never had a problem with that.
For the DIY type looking to save a few dollars (particularly if you are looking to shorten up that 15,000 OCI)I have a hunch that Rotella Synthetic 5w-40 or Mobil 1 5w-40 might work pretty well in the newer BMWs. Those would be my makeup oils of choice, if I found myself needing to add a quart before a new change.
Originally Posted By: Jett Rink
Craig in Canada: I've long used 15w-40 in an old E30. In fact, if I was to take it to the local BMW dealer for an oil change they themselves would put 15w-40 in there. It is what they use for all older BMWs. Some folks around here fear it is too thick for cold starts, but I've never had a problem with that.
In particular I was referring to warm weather (ie. summer time) ARX cycles with 15W40. When it never goes below 20C I don't think that the 15W represents any kind of issue whatsoever, whether the bimmer in question is old or new. A nice, dino, diesel-rated 40 was what I had my eye on.
I wouldn't run 15W40 in cold weather, although I'm not really sure how cold "cold" is in your area of TN.
Craig in Canada: I've long used 15w-40 in an old E30. In fact, if I was to take it to the local BMW dealer for an oil change they themselves would put 15w-40 in there. It is what they use for all older BMWs. Some folks around here fear it is too thick for cold starts, but I've never had a problem with that.
In particular I was referring to warm weather (ie. summer time) ARX cycles with 15W40. When it never goes below 20C I don't think that the 15W represents any kind of issue whatsoever, whether the bimmer in question is old or new. A nice, dino, diesel-rated 40 was what I had my eye on.
I wouldn't run 15W40 in cold weather, although I'm not really sure how cold "cold" is in your area of TN.
From the data sheets I've looked at, both meguin (Liqui-Moly and megol brands) and Pentosin make BMW approved hydrocraked oils.
Under LL-98:
meguin Liqui Moly Leichtlauf HC 7 5W-40
meguin Liqui Moly Profi Premium 5W-40
Pentosin Pento High Performance 5W-40
Under LL-01:
meguin Liqui Moly Leichtlauf Special LL 5W-30
meguin megol Motorenol Quality 5W-30
Under LL-04:
Pentosin Pentosynth HC 5W-40
I don't know how successful one would be in finding these in the USA, but it does at least show it is possible for a Group III to be Longlife approved.
Under LL-98:
meguin Liqui Moly Leichtlauf HC 7 5W-40
meguin Liqui Moly Profi Premium 5W-40
Pentosin Pento High Performance 5W-40
Under LL-01:
meguin Liqui Moly Leichtlauf Special LL 5W-30
meguin megol Motorenol Quality 5W-30
Under LL-04:
Pentosin Pentosynth HC 5W-40
I don't know how successful one would be in finding these in the USA, but it does at least show it is possible for a Group III to be Longlife approved.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: jpr
Near as I can tell, 5W-40 is not a current Pennzoil Platinum product.
I know. It seems like they pulled all the info regarding it from their site. I have actually never seen this product anywhere, and my attempts of acquiring it via various distributors failed as well. Now it looks like they killed it altogether. A strange move, to say the least.
The Euro grades have always had their own separate data sheets. To get the latest, go here:
http://www.pzlqs.com/techdata/l7_prodsheet_fs.htm
or a direct link to the 5W-40:
http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Pdsheet/Domest...Formulation.PDF
The 5W-40 meets LL-98, while the 5W-30 meets LL-01.
That said, I've never seen any of the Euro grades in the wild, and my local distributor doesn't carry it.
SOPUS treats the 15W-50 even worse. It's not acknowledged on the PP site, and only showed up in the data sheets many months after it appeared on the shelves, and only at Pep Boys. But at least I can buy it.
Originally Posted By: jpr
Near as I can tell, 5W-40 is not a current Pennzoil Platinum product.
I know. It seems like they pulled all the info regarding it from their site. I have actually never seen this product anywhere, and my attempts of acquiring it via various distributors failed as well. Now it looks like they killed it altogether. A strange move, to say the least.
The Euro grades have always had their own separate data sheets. To get the latest, go here:
http://www.pzlqs.com/techdata/l7_prodsheet_fs.htm
or a direct link to the 5W-40:
http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Pdsheet/Domest...Formulation.PDF
The 5W-40 meets LL-98, while the 5W-30 meets LL-01.
That said, I've never seen any of the Euro grades in the wild, and my local distributor doesn't carry it.
SOPUS treats the 15W-50 even worse. It's not acknowledged on the PP site, and only showed up in the data sheets many months after it appeared on the shelves, and only at Pep Boys. But at least I can buy it.
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: jpr
Near as I can tell, 5W-40 is not a current Pennzoil Platinum product.
I know. It seems like they pulled all the info regarding it from their site. I have actually never seen this product anywhere, and my attempts of acquiring it via various distributors failed as well. Now it looks like they killed it altogether. A strange move, to say the least.
The Euro grades have always had their own separate data sheets. To get the latest, go here:
http://www.pzlqs.com/techdata/l7_prodsheet_fs.htm
Handy site - thanks for the link!
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: jpr
Near as I can tell, 5W-40 is not a current Pennzoil Platinum product.
I know. It seems like they pulled all the info regarding it from their site. I have actually never seen this product anywhere, and my attempts of acquiring it via various distributors failed as well. Now it looks like they killed it altogether. A strange move, to say the least.
The Euro grades have always had their own separate data sheets. To get the latest, go here:
http://www.pzlqs.com/techdata/l7_prodsheet_fs.htm
Handy site - thanks for the link!
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
That said, I've never seen any of the Euro grades in the wild, and my local distributor doesn't carry it.
I wonder if anyone has actually seen them of if they only exist on paper.
Also, with the acquisition of Pennzoil/QS by Shell, aren't these PP Euro grades just some repackaged Shell product?
That said, I've never seen any of the Euro grades in the wild, and my local distributor doesn't carry it.
I wonder if anyone has actually seen them of if they only exist on paper.
Also, with the acquisition of Pennzoil/QS by Shell, aren't these PP Euro grades just some repackaged Shell product?
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