Issues with batteries for electric vehicles

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I'm not a battery scientist or engineer by any means, but I do feel like I have a very basic understanding of what's going on with the batteries. Beyond that, I'll defer to those of you who've actually gone to school and studies such things. It appears to me that we're still very much on the steep slope of the learning curve with respect to propulsion batteries. Lithium ion is coming, and other technologies hold promise as well. And it doesn't appear that there are any "show stopping" issues that will halt development of better batteries, at least not in the foreseeable future. OTOH, until we figure out how to quickly pack at least 250 miles of propulsion into a battery (without zapping anyone or blowing them up), I don't see pure EVs gaining traction in the market.

What say the battery experts?
 
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But I do think that the 40 mile range in the article is still useful. I would use it for my 13 mile commute to work each day and be quite happy without the extra range...for now.
 
Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan
But I do think that the 40 mile range in the article is still useful. I would use it for my 13 mile commute to work each day and be quite happy without the extra range...for now.


They need to get up to about an 80-100 mile advertised range before they have a real world usable 40 mile range.
 
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan
But I do think that the 40 mile range in the article is still useful. I would use it for my 13 mile commute to work each day and be quite happy without the extra range...for now.


They need to get up to about an 80-100 mile advertised range before they have a real world usable 40 mile range.


Good point. Detours, road construction, and other delays could really cut you pretty close on the 40 mile range. Didn't think of that.
 
I didn't read the attachment, but here's what I have to say about battery powered cars: They still get charged by a generator that is powered by coal or oil, so it's still polluting, it's just offset. I'm all for them, and I believe the technology is getting better. They need to solar charge them or something. The way things are done now isn't really helping.
 
Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan
Originally Posted By: XS650


They need to get up to about an 80-100 mile advertised range before they have a real world usable 40 mile range.


Good point. Detours, road construction, and other delays could really cut you pretty close on the 40 mile range. Didn't think of that.


That too
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I was thinking more along the lines of the mfrs range claims being under ideal conditions with new batteries.

Throw in some ugly traffic delays on AC using days and range will go in the toilet.
 
Originally Posted By: NYEngineer
I didn't read the attachment, but here's what I have to say about battery powered cars: They still get charged by a generator that is powered by coal or oil, so it's still polluting, it's just offset. I'm all for them, and I believe the technology is getting better. They need to solar charge them or something. The way things are done now isn't really helping.


That is not true if you have a nuclear power plant near you. As more nuclear power plants are built, this will become a thing of the past, but even coal power plants (oil based power plants are primarily used for backup electrical power) are more efficient than the little petroleum engines we use in our cars and they are also much more easily replaced. There is no downside to drawing energy from the grid, as all of the costs (such as upgrading the grid with wires that have thicker insulators to handle higher electrical loads while maintaining the same efficiency) are already part of the cost of electricity.

As for solar power, we receive approximately 700 watts per square meter from the Sun, which limits the maximum amount of solar power we can capture. Even if solar panels had 100% operating efficiency on all spectra, which is impossible, they would not be able to provide a sufficient amount of energy for our electrical needs (as where do you put them, how will they always be orthogonal to the rays of the sun, how will you get energy at night, how will you charge a car with energy from your solar panels when you are away at work, how and how often will you clean them off to maintain their efficiency when you have them tiled together?). Nuclear power is really the only way to go.
 
Roads should be designed so all traffic lights and stop signs are only at the tops of hills. This will reduce the cycling of batteries in EV's and hybrids, reducing the demand for new batteries.
 
Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
..... Nuclear power is really the only way to go.


How much uranium is available? What happens in a few decades when everyone is building and running a bunch of nukes using too much uranium? It just repeats the same mistake with oil.

You cannot specialize to any one source, be it oil, coal or nuclear. You have to include renewable types (solar, wind) regardless of their shortcomings (as you point out). The simple fact is only they will never run out.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Roads should be designed so all traffic lights and stop signs are only at the tops of hills. This will reduce the cycling of batteries in EV's and hybrids, reducing the demand for new batteries.


Conventional vehicles are arguably more in need of this "benefit" than either EVs or hybrids. . .
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Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Roads should be designed so all traffic lights and stop signs are only at the tops of hills. This will reduce the cycling of batteries in EV's and hybrids, reducing the demand for new batteries.


Virgina DOT engineers apparently get promotions when they put traffic lights and stop signs at the apex of a curve at the bottom of a hill.
 
Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
That is not true if you have a nuclear power plant near you. As more nuclear power plants are built, this will become a thing of the past, but even coal power plants (oil based power plants are primarily used for backup electrical power) are more efficient than the little petroleum engines we use in our cars and they are also much more easily replaced.


The oil based plants used for "back-up" and peaking are about the same efficiency as an IC engine. Throw in some transmission and conversion losses and you either break even, or lose.

There is a limited amount of Uranium in the world. India is playing with thorium breeders, which will extend that somewhat, but it's not limitless.

Nukes built with traditional cooling systems will evaporate inordinate amounts of water if they are supplying our transport needs. If they build them dry cooled (possible), they will be 15% efficient at best.

Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
There is no downside to drawing energy from the grid, as all of the costs (such as upgrading the grid with wires that have thicker insulators to handle higher electrical loads while maintaining the same efficiency) are already part of the cost of electricity.


Load has nothing to do with insulation. Insulation is rated according to voltage, not current (load).
 
Originally Posted By: bob_ninja
Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
..... Nuclear power is really the only way to go.


How much uranium is available? What happens in a few decades when everyone is building and running a bunch of nukes using too much uranium? It just repeats the same mistake with oil.

You cannot specialize to any one source, be it oil, coal or nuclear. You have to include renewable types (solar, wind) regardless of their shortcomings (as you point out). The simple fact is only they will never run out.


Nuclear power is a renewable energy source.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
That is not true if you have a nuclear power plant near you. As more nuclear power plants are built, this will become a thing of the past, but even coal power plants (oil based power plants are primarily used for backup electrical power) are more efficient than the little petroleum engines we use in our cars and they are also much more easily replaced.


The oil based plants used for "back-up" and peaking are about the same efficiency as an IC engine. Throw in some transmission and conversion losses and you either break even, or lose.

There is a limited amount of Uranium in the world. India is playing with thorium breeders, which will extend that somewhat, but it's not limitless.

Nukes built with traditional cooling systems will evaporate inordinate amounts of water if they are supplying our transport needs. If they build them dry cooled (possible), they will be 15% efficient at best.

Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
There is no downside to drawing energy from the grid, as all of the costs (such as upgrading the grid with wires that have thicker insulators to handle higher electrical loads while maintaining the same efficiency) are already part of the cost of electricity.


Load has nothing to do with insulation. Insulation is rated according to voltage, not current (load).


Spent nuclear fuel rods still contain 99% fissible uranium. It is the 1% that is composed of products of the fission reaction that prevents further fission. Given that only 1% of the uranium in nuclear fuel rods is consumed, that nuclear fuel rods are replaced every three years on average and that we have a large supply of uranium beyond what is currently used in nuclear reactors, what would be used in additional nuclear reactors and what could be recovered by reprocessing existing "waste," I believe that nuclear reprocessing will ensure that we have enough energy for centuries (perhaps even millennia) and when the supply becomes an issue, cold-fusion reactors, fusion reactors and/or antimatter-matter reactors will have been an option for a long time, assuming that we wait until we run out of uranium to switch.

By the way, no energy source is truly renewable. Energy sources are only called renewable when they will last such a long period of time that discussion of when they will be depleted is pointless. E.g. Solar power will become useless in approximately 5.4 billion years when the earth's biosphere will cease to exist. It also becomes useless when you travel out of our solar system, at which point there is too little of it to collect.
 
I didn't think that fuel rods were any where near 100% fissile uranium...guess I learn something else today.
 
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