I posted earlier today about it snowing and not being able to get out. I got to thinking even more about tires and snow and came up with this question: given the same tread pattern, such as the Yokohama H4S and W4S share, would you expect the 'H' or the 'W' to be better in the snow, or would they perform the same, theoretically? And we're talking about the same size tire( my car uses 215/45/17), just different speed ratings. I would expect the 'W' rated tire to be built differently and have a different rubber compound to allow it to sustain a higher speed level. But would that make it worse in the snow or better? Any ideas?
A question for the tire experts
- Thread starter wbwanzer
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In some cases higher speed ratings have a lower wear rating, maybe softer tread, but I believe not in this case. Either way, these are not good tires for snow.
The "W" probably just has more or stronger cords in the sidewall to help maintain higher speeds. My guess is their snow performance would be equal to that of the "H".
Yup!!
Snow traction is pretty much all about tread pattern and very little to do with tread compound.
And speed rating? Well, unless they change the tire (and that's possible because different OE customers want different levels and kinds of performance), there really shouldn't be a difference.
My guess is that using the lower speed rating (all other things being equal) is more likely to have better snow traction, because it is more likely that the higher speed rating was designed without snow traction as a major consideration.
Snow traction is pretty much all about tread pattern and very little to do with tread compound.
And speed rating? Well, unless they change the tire (and that's possible because different OE customers want different levels and kinds of performance), there really shouldn't be a difference.
My guess is that using the lower speed rating (all other things being equal) is more likely to have better snow traction, because it is more likely that the higher speed rating was designed without snow traction as a major consideration.
Kestas
Staff member
I noticed that all-season tires have thin grooves in the tread architecture that summer-only tires do not. This is what you look for. Speed rating is meaningless for snow.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Yup!!
Snow traction is pretty much all about tread pattern and very little to do with tread compound.
I disagree...some manufacturers place specific compounds in their tires for increased snow traction...the BFGs I have are touted as having silica in the tread for increased snow traction.
Yup!!
Snow traction is pretty much all about tread pattern and very little to do with tread compound.
I disagree...some manufacturers place specific compounds in their tires for increased snow traction...the BFGs I have are touted as having silica in the tread for increased snow traction.
Wouldn't the (even slightly) stiffer sidewalls required by the higher speed rated tires (ALL else being equal) hinder ice/snow/slush performance.
I was always told you want a VERY compliant, soft sidewall for winter traction to let the tread conform to the surface AND to help with snow/slush release from the tread pattern. Although some modern winter tires actually rely on the road's snow sticking to the snow already in the tire's tread for traction.
I would think that this would ONLY work at or below certain temps????
I was always told you want a VERY compliant, soft sidewall for winter traction to let the tread conform to the surface AND to help with snow/slush release from the tread pattern. Although some modern winter tires actually rely on the road's snow sticking to the snow already in the tire's tread for traction.
I would think that this would ONLY work at or below certain temps????
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Wouldn't the (even slightly) stiffer sidewalls required by the higher speed rated tires (ALL else being equal) hinder ice/snow/slush performance.......
Speed ratings are all about cap plies - those nylon strips that reduce the amount of centrifugal growth of the tread.
For practical purposes, they really don't affect the footprint - which is all about compression.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
.......I was always told you want a VERY compliant, soft sidewall for winter traction to let the tread conform to the surface AND to help with snow/slush release from the tread pattern........
No, that's not really true.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
....Although some modern winter tires actually rely on the road's snow sticking to the snow already in the tire's tread for traction.
I would think that this would ONLY work at or below certain temps????
If you take a look at what the Europeans use for winter tires, notice the amount of small jagged sipes. For practical purposes, it's the "paddle wheel" effect that seems to have the most effect on snow traction.
You have got to remember that a lot of what folks might hear is "advertising" - not very technical, but oh, so exciting. I'm continually amazed at what my employer's marketing deparment puts out.
Let's take the "snow sticking to snow" thing. That sounds to me like "Our tire doesn't eject snow very well, so we'll tell them that's a good thing!"
But having said that, tread compounds ARE important when the temperature drops. Dry traction is greatly reduced unless the tread compoun can penetrate the macrotexture of the pavement. (Wet traction, too!)
Wouldn't the (even slightly) stiffer sidewalls required by the higher speed rated tires (ALL else being equal) hinder ice/snow/slush performance.......
Speed ratings are all about cap plies - those nylon strips that reduce the amount of centrifugal growth of the tread.
For practical purposes, they really don't affect the footprint - which is all about compression.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
.......I was always told you want a VERY compliant, soft sidewall for winter traction to let the tread conform to the surface AND to help with snow/slush release from the tread pattern........
No, that's not really true.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
....Although some modern winter tires actually rely on the road's snow sticking to the snow already in the tire's tread for traction.
I would think that this would ONLY work at or below certain temps????
If you take a look at what the Europeans use for winter tires, notice the amount of small jagged sipes. For practical purposes, it's the "paddle wheel" effect that seems to have the most effect on snow traction.
You have got to remember that a lot of what folks might hear is "advertising" - not very technical, but oh, so exciting. I'm continually amazed at what my employer's marketing deparment puts out.
Let's take the "snow sticking to snow" thing. That sounds to me like "Our tire doesn't eject snow very well, so we'll tell them that's a good thing!"
But having said that, tread compounds ARE important when the temperature drops. Dry traction is greatly reduced unless the tread compoun can penetrate the macrotexture of the pavement. (Wet traction, too!)
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Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Let's take the "snow sticking to snow" thing. That sounds to me like "Our tire doesn't eject snow very well, so we'll tell them that's a good thing!"
That's what I've always thought as well (i.e.; that you want a lot of void area for ejection). That DID sound a little suspect to me when I first heard it used as an explanation.
Thanks for the other info as well!!
So one could have an effective winter tire with stiff sidewalls, as long as it was combined with a suitable compound and very 'sipey' tread pattern??
Let's take the "snow sticking to snow" thing. That sounds to me like "Our tire doesn't eject snow very well, so we'll tell them that's a good thing!"
That's what I've always thought as well (i.e.; that you want a lot of void area for ejection). That DID sound a little suspect to me when I first heard it used as an explanation.
Thanks for the other info as well!!
So one could have an effective winter tire with stiff sidewalls, as long as it was combined with a suitable compound and very 'sipey' tread pattern??
Originally Posted By: oily boyd
Nokian also uses a special Silica and Canola oil in their dedicated winter tires.
According to the Nokian website these special oils are more for rolling resistance.
I use these year round tires >>> Nokian WR G2 and all marketing seems to point to tread design for winter traction.
They work very well in the snow, rain and especially slush. The only negative is they rumble a bit down the road instead of my previous RE92's that emitted a louder white noise instead.
I am amazed still by their slush performance. I got pushed over by a plow into the slush lane(uncleared) at 45MPH. A few people followed suit and went into side-side swerving thankfully behind me. I keep on motoring down 2"+ of slush at 45MPH in an Subaru Legacy GT and safely merged into clear(er) lane without drama.
Nokian also uses a special Silica and Canola oil in their dedicated winter tires.
According to the Nokian website these special oils are more for rolling resistance.
I use these year round tires >>> Nokian WR G2 and all marketing seems to point to tread design for winter traction.
They work very well in the snow, rain and especially slush. The only negative is they rumble a bit down the road instead of my previous RE92's that emitted a louder white noise instead.
I am amazed still by their slush performance. I got pushed over by a plow into the slush lane(uncleared) at 45MPH. A few people followed suit and went into side-side swerving thankfully behind me. I keep on motoring down 2"+ of slush at 45MPH in an Subaru Legacy GT and safely merged into clear(er) lane without drama.
Again, I disagree...
I have seen instances where a soft sidewall caused excellent snow traction...A set of 255x85r16 LR D Coopers under a 2500 truck were practically unstoppable...the sidewalls were very soft. The same truck (the following winter) with a set of 235x85x16 LR E in the same tire was almost helpless in 2wd. It was night/day difference.
This also applies to suspension...a car with a soft, flexible suspension will typically go further in slippery conditions than a truck with a very stiff suspension. Mainly because the springs allow the axle to "wrap" slightly instead of breaking traction. I added an extra leaf to the rear spring packs of an SUV, it made the truck worse in snow, with the same tire on the same road, in the same conditions, with a harsher ride.
This is actual experience, not marketing.
I have seen instances where a soft sidewall caused excellent snow traction...A set of 255x85r16 LR D Coopers under a 2500 truck were practically unstoppable...the sidewalls were very soft. The same truck (the following winter) with a set of 235x85x16 LR E in the same tire was almost helpless in 2wd. It was night/day difference.
This also applies to suspension...a car with a soft, flexible suspension will typically go further in slippery conditions than a truck with a very stiff suspension. Mainly because the springs allow the axle to "wrap" slightly instead of breaking traction. I added an extra leaf to the rear spring packs of an SUV, it made the truck worse in snow, with the same tire on the same road, in the same conditions, with a harsher ride.
This is actual experience, not marketing.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Let's take the "snow sticking to snow" thing. That sounds to me like "Our tire doesn't eject snow very well, so we'll tell them that's a good thing!"
And again, this varies by tire design...if you look at the tires advertising this (take my Cooper M&S), they have additional "ridges" inside the grooves of the tire...as the snow is "squeezed" into the tread grooves, they provide an extra gripping surface.
Let's take the "snow sticking to snow" thing. That sounds to me like "Our tire doesn't eject snow very well, so we'll tell them that's a good thing!"
And again, this varies by tire design...if you look at the tires advertising this (take my Cooper M&S), they have additional "ridges" inside the grooves of the tire...as the snow is "squeezed" into the tread grooves, they provide an extra gripping surface.
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
This also applies to suspension...a car with a soft, flexible suspension will typically go further in slippery conditions than a truck with a very stiff suspension. Mainly because the springs allow the axle to "wrap" slightly instead of breaking traction. I added an extra leaf to the rear spring packs of an SUV, it made the truck worse in snow, with the same tire on the same road, in the same conditions, with a harsher ride.
This much I know.
I ALWAYS adjust my Koni shocks to the softest settings in anticipation of snow/ice/slush conditions. If it is really bad I may even go as far as to loosen the (bigger than stock) sway bar end links slightly, for a slower bar reaction time (reduces 'snap' slides somewhat).
This also applies to suspension...a car with a soft, flexible suspension will typically go further in slippery conditions than a truck with a very stiff suspension. Mainly because the springs allow the axle to "wrap" slightly instead of breaking traction. I added an extra leaf to the rear spring packs of an SUV, it made the truck worse in snow, with the same tire on the same road, in the same conditions, with a harsher ride.
This much I know.
I ALWAYS adjust my Koni shocks to the softest settings in anticipation of snow/ice/slush conditions. If it is really bad I may even go as far as to loosen the (bigger than stock) sway bar end links slightly, for a slower bar reaction time (reduces 'snap' slides somewhat).
Re: A question for the tire experts
Actualy, there's only one tire expert that posts here regularly. A few with some OJT, and a bunch who don't really need an air compressor to generate enough hot air to inflate their tires.
Bob
Actualy, there's only one tire expert that posts here regularly. A few with some OJT, and a bunch who don't really need an air compressor to generate enough hot air to inflate their tires.
Bob
Bob,
Once again, your post is concise and very accurate (and funny to boot!). I pretty much always enjoy your posts.
Once again, your post is concise and very accurate (and funny to boot!). I pretty much always enjoy your posts.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Yup!!
Snow traction is pretty much all about tread pattern and very little to do with tread compound.
Maybe during snow conditions tread pattern and actual treadwear are more important. But it's common knowledge that winter tires have softer compaunds than other tires. Softer compaunds also help with stopping distance on cold pavement, somewhat compensating for lesser ammount of rubber in contact with the road.
Yup!!
Snow traction is pretty much all about tread pattern and very little to do with tread compound.
Maybe during snow conditions tread pattern and actual treadwear are more important. But it's common knowledge that winter tires have softer compaunds than other tires. Softer compaunds also help with stopping distance on cold pavement, somewhat compensating for lesser ammount of rubber in contact with the road.
Originally Posted By: wbwanzer
I posted earlier today about it snowing and not being able to get out. I got to thinking even more about tires and snow and came up with this question: given the same tread pattern, such as the Yokohama H4S and W4S share, would you expect the 'H' or the 'W' to be better in the snow, or would they perform the same, theoretically? And we're talking about the same size tire( my car uses 215/45/17), just different speed ratings. I would expect the 'W' rated tire to be built differently and have a different rubber compound to allow it to sustain a higher speed level. But would that make it worse in the snow or better? Any ideas?
I have only had two models of Yokohama tires on my vehicles. The Avid T4 were really bad in snow. The "V" groove would fill up with snow and then "snow on snow" action would have no traction.
Right now I have Yokohama Touring, and they are better in the snow than the T4's were. But nowhelre close to the snow performance on Bridgestone Potenza RE950, or Michelin Energy MX4. However, none of those tires can match the wet performance of Yokohama Tire. Since most of the snow here is salted into slush, wet performance was more important to me than pure snow driving. I just drive more cautiosly when the plows have not made their way through. Plus I have AWD, which does nothing for braking, but helps a lot with acceleration and cornering (switching from understeer to oversteer with some throttle)
I posted earlier today about it snowing and not being able to get out. I got to thinking even more about tires and snow and came up with this question: given the same tread pattern, such as the Yokohama H4S and W4S share, would you expect the 'H' or the 'W' to be better in the snow, or would they perform the same, theoretically? And we're talking about the same size tire( my car uses 215/45/17), just different speed ratings. I would expect the 'W' rated tire to be built differently and have a different rubber compound to allow it to sustain a higher speed level. But would that make it worse in the snow or better? Any ideas?
I have only had two models of Yokohama tires on my vehicles. The Avid T4 were really bad in snow. The "V" groove would fill up with snow and then "snow on snow" action would have no traction.
Right now I have Yokohama Touring, and they are better in the snow than the T4's were. But nowhelre close to the snow performance on Bridgestone Potenza RE950, or Michelin Energy MX4. However, none of those tires can match the wet performance of Yokohama Tire. Since most of the snow here is salted into slush, wet performance was more important to me than pure snow driving. I just drive more cautiosly when the plows have not made their way through. Plus I have AWD, which does nothing for braking, but helps a lot with acceleration and cornering (switching from understeer to oversteer with some throttle)
Our SX4 came with the All-Season, Bridgestone Turanza EL 400-02. Not bad for an OE tire, but it's definitely not a Snow tire. Had that "siping" done to them, and the traction improvement, in the snow, ice, and rain, is surprisingly drastic.
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