2005 Dodge Ram, 16233 miles on Amsoil AME

[Harley Anderson]

Apparently my motor doesn't like Amsoil run this long according to Blackstone. This was a 10 month run of this oil and I did not put as many miles on it this year as I did in the past. Total makeup oil was 8 quarts. I change the frantz every 2k and add a quart. A donaldson fitler was used during the whole oci and a eao air filter. First column is current oci, second is the same oil at 9972 miles, and the third column is rotella dino at 10,179 miles. Truck has 61509 on it at the time of this current sample. Let me know what you guys think, I like the AME and would like to keep running it up to a one year oci up to 25k. Also three qts of makeup oil was ACD 10w30.

Miles on oil:
16233 - - 9972 - - 10,179 - -Avg on Unit
Make up oil 8qt - - 4qt - - 4qt
Sample Date -1/08/08- -10/7/07 -3/14/07
Aluminum .....2.........2........2.......3
Chromium......2.........2........3.......2
Iron..........39........30.......33......37
Copper........101.......10.......8.......23
Lead..........5..........5.......2.......3
Tin...........1..........1.......1.......1
Moly..........2..........1.......1.......2
Nickel........1..........1.......1.......1
Manganese.....1..........0.......1.......1
Silver........1..........1.......2.......1
Titanium......0..........0.......0.......0
Potassium.....3..........0.......2.......6
Silicon.......4..........4.......5.......5
Sodium........4..........3.......3.......3
Calcium......3066.......3151....3600....3074
Magnesium.....9..........9.......12......11
Phosphorous..989........1011....1059....1031
Zinc.........1173.......1163....1223....1203

Sus [email protected]
cST [email protected]
Flashpoint....445.......450.....415.....>415
Fuel.......... Insoluables...0.4........0.4.....0.4
TBN..............................7.0

Don't flame me for not getting a TBN done. I just figured with as much makeup oil as I had, there should be no reason for a low tbn.

Blackstone said, you are into the bearings with this 16233 mile oil run. Note the 10-fold increase in copper. We found no harmful contamination in the oil which would cause this poor wearing bottom end, so the conclusion is, the oil was run too long. They continue to say that I should try a dino oil like rotella or delo because they hold up under long use and have a high TBN. Also I have been towing a lot more, nothing extreme though.

 

[Harley Anderson]

Admin, please move to diesel uoa section. Sorry

 

[Pablo]

I respectfully disagree with Blackstone. I don't think the Cu is from wear or the longer run. Copper going up 10X in 6K miles, points to something else when NONE of the other metals even change in 6200 miles. Not sure wear it's coming from...coolers, antisieze, lines, fittings......

 

[Harley Anderson]

Thanks Pabs, I agree, most likely oil cooler leaching it.

 

[Alternator]

You installed an oil cooler recently?

Considering the amount of makeup oil, I would be alarmed. It would seem hardly even worth the extended drain with that much makeup oil being used.

 

[Harley Anderson]

no oil cooler installed, I was talking about the stock one.

 

[Pablo]

Yeah we need this thread moved to the big D forum.

The make up oil was not added because of consumption but rather the filter change. In general wear is very consistant with only the one copper spike, almost like some contamination of something.

The Silicon is amazingly low, and for a diesel at 16K the solids are quite low. Filtration is working. Honestly nothing looks wrong with the oil!

 

[Alternator]

8qt represents 2/3 of that sump. And even after that it is still showing over 100 copper?

I'd be taking another sample alot sooner next time.

 

[Harley Anderson]

For anyone questioning the copper, here is a little blurb from Cat about it.

"Per Caterpillar, high levels of copper found in oil analysis are a result of engine cooler core” leaching". The Zinc additive in Diesel Motor oil reacts with the copper cooler core tubes at high oil temperatures. This chemical reaction results in copper oxidation products forming on the surface of the tubes and then coming off into the oil as it washes over and around the tubes. Heat is a catalyst to this chemical reaction. The higher the oil temperature the greater the rate of oxidation and the longer the reaction process is sustained. This does not cause any damage to the cooler core, or to the engine. However, you will see the copper reading elevate to over 100 PPM. Copper is not a particulate in this case but is in solution in the oil. The PPM will start relatively low and increase over 100 PPM and stay at high levels for several intervals, and then return to normal. During the oxidation process, a hard film forms on the tube surfaces exhibiting the appearance of clear varnish. Changes in operating temperatures, and/or changing oil brands can chemically disrupt this film and begin the oxidative leaching processes again. This can occur in any system with a cooler core: Gasoline or Diesel engines transmissions or hydraulic systems."

 

[Pablo]

Wow that's a good description. I'll bet you had a couple hot runs in the last 6K.

EDIT: I just noticed/read this:
Quote:
Also three qts of makeup oil was ACD 10w30.
Was this towards the end?

 

[Harley Anderson]

yes, the acd was right after the 9972 sample. I don't like good oil sitting around and I use the acd in the small engine dept. I almost bought half ame and half acd for the last change, but I chickened out, plus the ame is a lot thinner than most other 15w40's. I heard a lot of people on here say that it almost classifies as a 5w.

 

[Pablo]

I just wonder if the new dose of ACD caused the leaching....

 

[dnewton3]

I concur with Pablo on this; there's nothing wrong here, IF you're confident that no system maintenance issues have been or are being ignored. (I.E., no knocking sounds, odd smells, loss of fluids, or anything that would tip you to thinking a mechanical failure is occuring.)

Secondly, I really concur with the statement from Cat. In fact, I posted a LONG write-up from Cummins several months ago. In it, there was specific mention of UOA's and wear metals when changing oil brands often. There is normalization that needs to occur when different chemistry packages are introduced (from brand to brand). Where I see commonality in these two corporate statements is that wear metals will first elevate, then settle over time, due to lubricant chemistry. Copper is specifically mentioned, and for the very reason of oxidation.

Also, from a statisitcal engineer's point of view, I'm confident that wear metals should not be a "static" characteristic. Rather, they are somewhat "dynamic" in that they constantly move up and down a bit in the readings. It can be attributed to the changes of seasons, environmental issues, usage patterns, etc. Trends of linear change, such as more than 3 successive increasing or decreasing readings, are important. Or, consistent readings that lay WAY outside the norms would be of concern. You don't have either of these conditions.

Harley - I'd not be afraid to push this oil out another several thousand miles on this OCI. Sample every 5k miles as you go; it will most likely relieve any fears, and be a good point of edification for us all. Every time I see a diesel UOA, I review the info, and if warranted, include it in my ongoing diesel oil filtration study. I count on people such as yourself extending the OCI's, to give credibility to extended drain intervals. My data shows that your UOA gives no reason to change. You should absolutely keep an eye on the copper, but don't let it move you to over-reaction. After all, why pay for preium oil and bypass filtration if you're not going to extend the OCI?

 

[Harley Anderson]

Thanks dnewton3. Too bad though because I did change the oil when I took the last sample. There has been nothing wrong with the motor at all since I've had it, other than a stuck wastegate, but I have my module set to limit boost to 36psi anyways.

I totally agree with you on the point of the readings moving around a bit. My driving varies everyday and thats why I can never get a good reading on fuel mileage, so for me a variance in a uoa is not unexpected. I wasn't worried about copper at all but mostly iron, lead, and aluminum, which were in spec from previous uoa's. Thanks again. Like I said I am fine with changing oil once a year, I just know this year was low on mileage compared to the previous.

 

[dnewton3]

Harley Anderson - can't argue with your logic there.

Still, I have often wondered why the "... or one year, whichever comes first" mentality applies. I'm not faulting your actions; I've just always been a wee bit curious about the "dangers and heresy" of extending an OCI out past 1 year. Clearly there isn't some internal self-destructive compound in the oil, nor in the engine, that terminates existence on the 366th day.

So, with a good set up like yours, running a premium oil and filtration system, what would be the harm of running past the 1 year mark? Obviously continued UOA's would be advisable to help track any issues, and I would think that oxidation and/or moisture content would be the leading issues, but as long as they were in line with previous readings, then just where does the potential harm lay?

It's my oppinion that on vehicles with higher mileage averages per year, such as yours, you would be getting enough heat generation in the crankcase to help control moisture. And I don't think that the risk for corrosion is any greater past the 1 year mark, but I don't have proof. It truly comes down to the UOA's. After all, a UOA is an indirect indication of your engine's health, but it is a direct indication of the oil's relative health. If a UOA shows good readings for all the characteristics, why then does oil suddenly become "bad" after 365 days and necessitate changing? New oil has a very long shelf life when in the container, right? So as long as you're controlling the oil environment in the engine, where's the harm in running longer? After all, bypass filtration is there to help keep the oil's condition at near new capacity, so the logic would stand that the UOA should dictate the change, not mileage or calender. In fact, with your Frantz filter, because of the 2k filter change, you're replenishing many, many of the additives just by putting in the make-up oil.

Again, I'm not calling you out for changing your oil; we all do it based on personal comfort levels of some criteria we choose important as idividuals. I'm just throwing a topic out there for discussion.

Is it possible that the pervasive oil myth of "3 months or 3k miles" is not just bunk on the mileage side; rather, it's full of bunk on both sides of the equation. For a low mileage vehicle with bargin basement oils and filters, certaily a routine change interval based on that 3/3 criteria is cheap insurance against a much more costly engine episode.

But for those who choose premium fluids, premium filtration, and do UOA's, why then does a distance or chronilogical milestone become important? I would point to tranny fluid. We see mileage markers for OCI with tranny fluid, but not a time constraint. We could assume that because the tranny does not see the byproducts of internal combustion, that it is not at risk like the engine oil, and therefore the timeline is not relavant. But with premium engine oil products and filtration removing the effects of internal combustion, why does the timeline still prevail for engine oil?

Even the vaulted Amsoil products, with the well written and published warranty, still bow the to gremlins of time.

BUT WHY??????????????

 

[Harley Anderson]

To me, the one year standpoint is just a starting point in extending the oci. If I can make it to one year and the oil is suitable for continued use, then I will continue using it. I think the one year subject is another oil myth, its just easier for people to remember, like the 3 month statement. Another thing you have to remember is not everyone knows of or has their oil analyzed on a perodical basis. Some of the people I talked to, even mechanic's, think I am crazy for analyzing my oil. They say just change it and don't worry about it, its only lubrication.

I think I am a candidate for Raplh Wood's theory of never changing the oil again, but its not going to kill me or bankrupt me if I do. This subject is very interesting to me, even though I am not an engineer (although I wish I was), sometimes it does get overwhelming like a ocd person would have. Now if I could just extend the oci on my balljoints I would be happy.

** Edit ** The dodges with the aam axles eat balljoints about every 40-60k miles.

 

[dnewton3]

Certainly there is a threshold between what we can tolerate financially, and what we can endure mentally.

For example, I have a 2006 Duramax; comes with a 100k mile/60 month engine warranty (truck is still basic 3yr/36k for the rest of the vehicle). So, as I only average around 10k miles a year, I'll only elapse 50k miles in the 5 years. Still - the risk of engine damage (admittedly very remote) is still overwhelming enough financially (say a $10k engine swap?) that the act of running an OCI out indefinitely is not in the best interest of my wallet at this point. The routine OCI (by OLM or "conventionally" accepted mileage factor) is cheap insurance against the manufacturer denying my potential claim, no matter how remote the change of failure.

OTOH, for my other vehicles that are way out of warranty, it might be an interesting opportunity to see just how long I could push out an OCI. I am toying with the idea of a premium oil/bypass filtration set-up, possibly adding a Fumoto valve for ease of sampling, and just running it until a UOA says otherwise. Not because I can really show financial justification for the endeavor; it just really seems like a fun experiment, and if I can shed light on some trend, all the better, right?

After all, the largest contributing factor to any vehicle's oil comsumption is not buring, oxidation, or such, IT'S THE ACT OF CHANGING OIL! If you look at the presence of oil, and the replacement of that same oil, then ANYTHING that displaces the original fill is considered "consumption" from an external point of view. Draw a line on the calender on any given day, and do an OCI; consider that date as Day ONE. Three years from now, what will have "consumed" more oil; make up oil, or routine oil changes? My Dmax only goes through about 3 qts make-up in a year, but an OCI would take 10 quarts. By far, the act of an OCI represents the greatest "comsumption" of oil.

So in the end, as a UOA is a DIRECT indication of the health of your oil, why not let the UOA be the ONLY predictor of an OCI?

I guess my question is not to you so much, Harley, but to the premium oil marketers. If premium products (Amsoil, RP, Mobil 1, etc) are so darn good, then why do they go "bad" after a year?

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

Quote:
I guess my question is not to you so much, Harley, but to the premium oil marketers. If premium products (Amsoil, RP, Mobil 1, etc) are so darn good, then why do they go "bad" after a year?

It's not that the oils actually go bad after a year, it's just a cut-off point. They don't want people to use their oil for 25,000 miles over the span of 5-7 years, or something similar to that. Probably because of how the additives can still deplete when the vehicle isn't used (condensation, fuel, and combustion by-products may be in the crankcase in small amounts and cause depletion over time).

I've taken the oil out to 1 year intervals twice, and the oil itself was fine for a lot longer. I did have an air leak, so wear wasn't the best in the last two samples, but I hope to have fixed that. Once I finish up the Auto-RX rinse, I am going to do a 2 year OCI with Amsoil, which will probably be 10,000 miles or less, with no filter change either. A UOA will determine how wise my decision was, and I'm expecting it to not be a bad choice for the oil.

 

[D-Roc]

Kind of off topic, but what is your intake setup, Harley?