Kudos for an awesome reply!
50% shear at first 66 miles
- Thread starter undergroundnotes
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Haven't checked in on this thread till now - great input everyone!
Any progress?...and sorry if I'm coming across as rushing things.
Take care.
Any progress?...and sorry if I'm coming across as rushing things.
Take care.
66 miles is pretty low miles,sounds like your doing alot of short runs, engaging the choke further creates fuel to enter oil.
2% is not bad, but I've always done analysis after multi 4 and 5 hour runs, while the oil is hot .
However 2% fuel shouldnt kill a 40 weight to a 20 weight, theres other stuff going on there
2% is not bad, but I've always done analysis after multi 4 and 5 hour runs, while the oil is hot .
However 2% fuel shouldnt kill a 40 weight to a 20 weight, theres other stuff going on there
lets see here
AIR cooled 234cc sohc twin with 2 poppers per bore.
honda's site does not have any real info on it, but according to what i am seeing in the microfish, it looks like a shared oil sump.
this means that ALL of the oil goes to the tranny, clutch and motor. now i bet this little motor has to buzz pretty good to hit 70mph. meaning that tranny is doing the bass-o-matic tango on the oil.
the only oils that will hold up to this kind of abuse are gonna be the ci-4plus a few of the cj-4plus and the straight weights. most of the fancy named oils will die in under 100 miles with a "but i cost 7.95 a quart" wimper.
the various castrol version that i've tested will give up the ghost in short order (ie under 100 miles). heck, most oils will.
AIR cooled 234cc sohc twin with 2 poppers per bore.
honda's site does not have any real info on it, but according to what i am seeing in the microfish, it looks like a shared oil sump.
this means that ALL of the oil goes to the tranny, clutch and motor. now i bet this little motor has to buzz pretty good to hit 70mph. meaning that tranny is doing the bass-o-matic tango on the oil.
the only oils that will hold up to this kind of abuse are gonna be the ci-4plus a few of the cj-4plus and the straight weights. most of the fancy named oils will die in under 100 miles with a "but i cost 7.95 a quart" wimper.
the various castrol version that i've tested will give up the ghost in short order (ie under 100 miles). heck, most oils will.
CK: No progress yet. I'm starting on the carb this weekend. Hobby time is at a premium lately.
Mackelroy: I was doing a lot of stop and go in town. I actually talked to Terry Dyson recently of Dyson Analysis. He said the 50% shearing is because Honda oil is just that cheap. I'm currently using Castrol Motorcycle 10w-40 4T dino since it was at O'Reilly's 5 minutes from my house and I plan to change it soon anyway. (I've never seen anyone analyze or talk about that specific oil) After that, I'd like to use a 15w-40 diesel oil, but I'm a little cautious of any warranty issues the dealer may take advantage of since it's not in spec for bikes.
Mackelroy: I was doing a lot of stop and go in town. I actually talked to Terry Dyson recently of Dyson Analysis. He said the 50% shearing is because Honda oil is just that cheap. I'm currently using Castrol Motorcycle 10w-40 4T dino since it was at O'Reilly's 5 minutes from my house and I plan to change it soon anyway. (I've never seen anyone analyze or talk about that specific oil) After that, I'd like to use a 15w-40 diesel oil, but I'm a little cautious of any warranty issues the dealer may take advantage of since it's not in spec for bikes.
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Hey Steve,
Wow! Do you think most people riding the Honda Rebel are using oil sheared down 50%? For me, I think Supertech it will be.
Wow! Do you think most people riding the Honda Rebel are using oil sheared down 50%? For me, I think Supertech it will be.
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What was the Blackstone reading on the viscosity, and what did they offer as the "should be" value? I'm stunned that *any* oil could shear down that much in just 66 miles.
don,
i saw gtx 20w50 shear down to a susvis of 70.6 in just 80 miles.
i seem to have lost my gtx 10w40 uoa, but it was very poor as well.
and i tested the castrol 20w50 motorcycle specific and after a mere 30 miles it was a susvis of 77.3
now the castrol gps 20w50 was tested this year in the Sidewinder Enduro (2.5 hours motor time) and it has a susvis of 82.8. ok, but not worth the price. my route chart says that was 36.89 ground miles. add about .5 for around camp to the start and back from finish.
imho, castrol does not make a good shared sump bike oil.
i saw gtx 20w50 shear down to a susvis of 70.6 in just 80 miles.
i seem to have lost my gtx 10w40 uoa, but it was very poor as well.
and i tested the castrol 20w50 motorcycle specific and after a mere 30 miles it was a susvis of 77.3
now the castrol gps 20w50 was tested this year in the Sidewinder Enduro (2.5 hours motor time) and it has a susvis of 82.8. ok, but not worth the price. my route chart says that was 36.89 ground miles. add about .5 for around camp to the start and back from finish.
imho, castrol does not make a good shared sump bike oil.
Hey Sunruh ... thanks.
Question -- is there a chart out there that shows the ranges of viscosity "should be" values for the various weights of oil? I see the numbers being used in these posts and I'm never sure how to relate them to "should be" ranges.
What would make an oil "not good" for a shared sump ... that is, what physical or chemical property of an oil would suggest it would not be shear stable?
Question -- is there a chart out there that shows the ranges of viscosity "should be" values for the various weights of oil? I see the numbers being used in these posts and I'm never sure how to relate them to "should be" ranges.
What would make an oil "not good" for a shared sump ... that is, what physical or chemical property of an oil would suggest it would not be shear stable?
yes but that does not show susvis which for years is what blackstone ONLY gave.
I'll post the conversion website when I get home. Blackstone was living in 1955 on that one, glad they use cSt now. Still they regularly mess up the ranges.
TusconDon:
Here's Blackstone's reading:
SUS @ 210 F = 56.9 should be: 65-76
cSt @ 100 C = 9.33 should be: 11.6 - 14.8
Here's Blackstone's reading:
SUS @ 210 F = 56.9 should be: 65-76
cSt @ 100 C = 9.33 should be: 11.6 - 14.8
Originally Posted By: undergroundnotes
TusconDon:
Here's Blackstone's reading:
SUS @ 210 F = 56.9 should be: 65-76
cSt @ 100 C = 9.33 should be: 11.6 - 14.8
The problem with that is Blackstone's "should be's" are incorrect!! We are talking about a 10W-40. The range for a 40 is 12.5 - 16.3 cSt @ 100°C.
TusconDon:
Here's Blackstone's reading:
SUS @ 210 F = 56.9 should be: 65-76
cSt @ 100 C = 9.33 should be: 11.6 - 14.8
The problem with that is Blackstone's "should be's" are incorrect!! We are talking about a 10W-40. The range for a 40 is 12.5 - 16.3 cSt @ 100°C.
thanks for that link pablo!!!
yes, blackstone has taken it into their own hands to adjust the ranges according to the oil in question and its application for what the oil "should be".
i've got a feeling that southwest labs will be having my caller id show up on their system soon.
yes, blackstone has taken it into their own hands to adjust the ranges according to the oil in question and its application for what the oil "should be".
i've got a feeling that southwest labs will be having my caller id show up on their system soon.
Underground,
Being this is a new bike, I'd chalk it up to a fluke, run your castrol to 1000 mile, after a long ride drain retest it.
Street bikes dont normally shear oil 2 grades in 66 miles, it may be a combo of factors, 1 being a new engine is harder on the oil, 2 ya did have fuel in the oil and that will kill it one grade. Short ,stop and go stuff also adds to the mix. Its cold so ya have probably be running prolonged choke.
I wouldnt dive into the carb, till your sure that needs to be done. For $4+ perquart I Agree theres better options than GNC Honda Oil
and really it takes about 5,000 mile to break the tranny and everything in, Save your test money till then IMO
Being this is a new bike, I'd chalk it up to a fluke, run your castrol to 1000 mile, after a long ride drain retest it.
Street bikes dont normally shear oil 2 grades in 66 miles, it may be a combo of factors, 1 being a new engine is harder on the oil, 2 ya did have fuel in the oil and that will kill it one grade. Short ,stop and go stuff also adds to the mix. Its cold so ya have probably be running prolonged choke.
I wouldnt dive into the carb, till your sure that needs to be done. For $4+ perquart I Agree theres better options than GNC Honda Oil
and really it takes about 5,000 mile to break the tranny and everything in, Save your test money till then IMO
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Mackelroy and Others (comments welcome, especially on 3rd paragraph):
I'm not sure if it's currently dumping fuel into the oil, but if gas is flowing out of the overflow tube, I think it's possible. So I'm hesitant to ride out this oil to 1000 miles until I fix the carb issue and change the oil if needed.
Steve (sunruh) doesn't believe there's actual damage to the bike, which I, as a novice, found reassuring. On the other hand, I've lost some peace of mind over the idea that's I've now accumulated 120 miles on a 10w20 oil (if it's currently sheared that much).
If the oil shearing isn't going to make a difference in the longevity of this bike, no big deal. But if it is, I think I've got an issue with Honda. In the final analysis, I'm not sure if anyone can know. Wear metals are always high for a break-in engine, but I don't think there are standards that determine how high they should be in the first 66 miles, though maybe some computation can determine that. I suppose if the wear was equal to or less than a normal 1st oil drain reading(if that's known), I'll be good to go.
Thanks again all. My faith in humanity is restored
I'm not sure if it's currently dumping fuel into the oil, but if gas is flowing out of the overflow tube, I think it's possible. So I'm hesitant to ride out this oil to 1000 miles until I fix the carb issue and change the oil if needed.
Steve (sunruh) doesn't believe there's actual damage to the bike, which I, as a novice, found reassuring. On the other hand, I've lost some peace of mind over the idea that's I've now accumulated 120 miles on a 10w20 oil (if it's currently sheared that much).
If the oil shearing isn't going to make a difference in the longevity of this bike, no big deal. But if it is, I think I've got an issue with Honda. In the final analysis, I'm not sure if anyone can know. Wear metals are always high for a break-in engine, but I don't think there are standards that determine how high they should be in the first 66 miles, though maybe some computation can determine that. I suppose if the wear was equal to or less than a normal 1st oil drain reading(if that's known), I'll be good to go.
Thanks again all. My faith in humanity is restored
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I wouldn't be concerned with violation of any warranty issues by running a ci-4 or cj-4 Heavy Duty oil, if you'd like. First off, MANY of us have run such oil for 100,000 + miles with no problems. Secondly, from the sound of the first post, those dweebs at the dealership aren't going to pull a sample to send for analysis anyway.
Once you get it squared away, I highly recommend AmSoil Motorcycle oils if you are going to extend your OCI's out to over 1000 miles. I was one of the Heavy-Duty oil people until I put AmSoil in my bike...now I only change it once a year, rather than about 4 times a year. Great results doing this.
Once you get it squared away, I highly recommend AmSoil Motorcycle oils if you are going to extend your OCI's out to over 1000 miles. I was one of the Heavy-Duty oil people until I put AmSoil in my bike...now I only change it once a year, rather than about 4 times a year. Great results doing this.
Underground, I missed the part about the gas coming out the over flow tube when filling. The problem I have is, doesnt that bike have a vacume petcock?
If so filling the tank would not create fuel getting to the carb, it would not make it past the petcock, unless the petcock was flawed. So i wonder if that fuel actually came out of the tank overflow line.
I think 66 miles is not a good sample for testing, via the factors I posted before. I would run 1000 mile, check your oil lever before every ride ,if its getting higher then you have fuel leaking into the engine.
Personally I'd just ride the bike to get it broke in, then reevaluate any issues if they still exist, I do think you'll have some fuel dilution always, its quite normal for a motorcycle.
Shifting can sometimes play with the mind, even the best and worse oil,theres generally only a 5% difference in feel quality. Its more of a gate no gate transition, its either adequate or its not. AT 20 weight Id say ya might feel some difference.
But 2% fuel is nothing really in an mc engine , 66 mil analysis I think your gonna make yourself nuts
If so filling the tank would not create fuel getting to the carb, it would not make it past the petcock, unless the petcock was flawed. So i wonder if that fuel actually came out of the tank overflow line.
I think 66 miles is not a good sample for testing, via the factors I posted before. I would run 1000 mile, check your oil lever before every ride ,if its getting higher then you have fuel leaking into the engine.
Personally I'd just ride the bike to get it broke in, then reevaluate any issues if they still exist, I do think you'll have some fuel dilution always, its quite normal for a motorcycle.
Shifting can sometimes play with the mind, even the best and worse oil,theres generally only a 5% difference in feel quality. Its more of a gate no gate transition, its either adequate or its not. AT 20 weight Id say ya might feel some difference.
But 2% fuel is nothing really in an mc engine , 66 mil analysis I think your gonna make yourself nuts
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