heating little used buildings

[eljefino]

I was noticing how heating oil's getting a bit pricey and got to thinking about all the empty buildings around here.

Sure there's real estate for rent between tenants etc but there are also:

-- historical societies and museums open only a few hours
-- grange halls, VFWs, American Legions, Elks clubs, Boy scouts
-- churches, mosques, temples

All these groups are nonprofits and around here occupy old buildings typically in the town square or historical district. Many of the clubs date back to WWII and have single pane glass windows etc.

I bet a bunch of them have oil heat they leave on all the time. At first I'd say they should switch to forced air (no pipes) or electric but of course they need plumbing for the restroom etc and those pipes can't freeze.

Am sure some of these non-profits have healthy endowments while others scrape by on bottle drives. Am wondering how they deal with this expense. They don't pay real estate taxes and the buildings have been around forever... so maintenance and utilities are their big overhead costs.

Wonder also if going unheated somehow wrecks the building with condensation, vermin, wood expanding and contracting...

Also wonder if a nonprofit might, say, rent a chempotty, drain their pipes, shut off the heat 90% of the time, and donate their oil to a poor family or something.

Just rambling...

 

[JHZR2]

Why forced air mandate???

What is the matter with my hot water system??? I have no ducting leakage, and the thermal transfer coefficient on the working fluid side for my system (water) is higher than if it was air...

I see no benefit, and then to add insult to injury, it gives me the excuse to buy central air conditioning, which blows cold air through those leaky ducts and cools my whole house instead of just the spaces that need it...

What is the basis behind this suggestion???

Thanks,

JMH

 

[Pablo]

It's OK idea for them to turn the stat down to 50°F or so.....but it's not all that great for a building to go through diurnal heat cold cycles in the winter.

 

[Gary Allan]

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Why forced air mandate???

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Near instant heated space. The only draw back to it is that it has no residual heat to it. You open a door and it's gone.

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What is the matter with my hot water system???

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Nothing really. You don't have to heat your water very hot to make usable heat. It's better than steam in transitional temp changes and can be zoned for larger buildings. But you've still got to maintain a decent volume sump that can't warm a building on a dime like hot air ..so you're going to be running your furnace a long time to bring a 40F room to 70F. Much longer than hot air where you only need so many cu/ft exchanged.

Steam is fairly efficient in strict cold weather. Once the system is energized ..then routine cycling of the boiler can transmit heat rather easily. You can't jerk it around too much or you'll spend way too much energy breaching the 212F threshold.

Hot air is the best for "deep cycling". You'll pull much less % of efficiency from the furnace ..but if you're only operating it 5-10% of the time

 

[eljefino]

I say forced air so there wouldn't be water pipe baseboard heat that would require good antifreeze or constant draining. I have expensive antifreeze in my house system b/c of some drafty corners, like by the dryer vent, that freeze the baseboard loop. Had that freeze a couple times and it's miserable-- got to find the freezeup and get it thawed while the house is quickly losing core temp. I run a woodstove so I can go many hours without the furnace/circulator pump coming on. But enough about me.

One would have to fire up the furnace 4 hours or so before the meeting to get all the chairs etc warm but with home automation technologies someone could call in or log in or set an elaborate timer.

Everyone always says X heat is the most efficient but they're assuming for a building that's always occupied. Am trying to think outside the box for those buildings that are almost always empty.

 

[oilyriser]

Freezing a foundation or a floor slab does interesting things.

 

[JHZR2]

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One would have to fire up the furnace 4 hours or so before the meeting to get all the chairs etc warm but with home automation technologies someone could call in or log in or set an elaborate timer.

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Whether you have forced air or water or whatnot, if it takes n amount of time to warm the chairs and tables, it doesnt matter whether the surrounding air is heated with forced air or water heat.

It certainly is understandable that forced air mightheat up faster... but the question is, in a freezing area, where pipe burst is a possibility, what is thebetter method of ensuring an above freeing temperature, both in the airspace of the building, as well as in the wallspace where water pipes are located???

JMH

 

[refaller]

Every church I have been in keeps the temperature at an even 50F. Never had pipes freeze, but here the temp rarely gets below 10F. At my grandparents farm (further north and in mountains), we set it at 40F, but then place anti-freeze in the pipes as well. It gets colder there, but all the pipes are central to the house. I can't think of any in outside walls. That is where I remember people having problems.

ref

 

[Gary Allan]

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Whether you have forced air or water or whatnot, if it takes n amount of time to warm the chairs and tables,

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So

Suppose the reality of expenses forces you to abandon the notion of warm chairs and tables and you live with them ..taking consolation in the fact that the room itself is warm? You're not living in these places ..they're occasional use/event structures. If your occupants experience any "discomfort" it's mild and temporary. They learn to wear sweaters under their coats and they keep their gloves on a few minutes longer.

Quote:

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It certainly is understandable that forced air mightheat up faster... but the question is, in a freezing area, where pipe burst is a possibility, what is thebetter method of ensuring an above freeing temperature, both in the airspace of the building, as well as in the wallspace where water pipes are located???

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You might (as in maybe) be able to get away with heat trace for pipes you have access to. That and pipe insulation should prevent any frozen/burst condition. This would be difficult in existing structures ..but if one had the opportunity, it might yield better total economy. Naturally, my "future planning" would install two heat trace lines per span to account for the inevitable failure of at least one of them at some time.

 

[oilyriser]

Church service rotation: Why does it *have* to be only on a Sunday? A church could have seven groups of 300 people, who each come in to worship one evening a week. Each person gives off 100 watts of heat. 300x100 = 30,000W, or 102,000 BTU/hr. Add 20 candles at 50W each, and you have another 3400 BTU/hr. Make the church out of stone, and thermal mass will store enough human energy to keep it warm all winter, with no heating system at all.

 

[benjamming]

"Why does it *have* to be only on a Sunday?"

The answer(s) would be deemed religious for this forum. Sorry.

 

[eljefino]

There are churches around here who share a pastor, so one church has services at 9 then the other at 11. Efficient use of personnell, inefficient use of buildings.