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#1010351 - 10/15/07 04:18 AM Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911
ezatu Offline


Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 14
Loc: Ct
Hoping you oil folks can help. My 1985 911 3.2 litre originally used dino 20W-50 oil. Porsche has approved Mobil 0W-40 for all cars back to late 70's. Now I'm hearing Mobil 1 15w-50 might be the better choice. Also hearing Mobil may not have enough zinc and phosphorous for proper lubrication in my high reving flat six engine. Is zinc and phosphorous that critical? Would synthetic 15w-50 be the preferred choice over 0w-40 - if yes, why would Porsche have recommended 0w-40.

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#1010352 - 10/15/07 04:38 AM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: ezatu]
Cary Offline


Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 308
Loc: Northern California
I think Mobil answers the question pretty well themselves, here is the same question and a response from their website:

Does Mobil 1 Contain the Additive for Flat Tappet Cams?
I build a few engines a year as I do muscle car repairs and I have been having a lot of camshaft failures. I just read that it is because the oil no longer has the additive for flat tappet cams. Can I use Mobil 1 to break in fresh rebuilt engines of '60s and '70s tech? Is it too slippery for new ring break-in? Will it give protection on new cam and lifters?

For older, flat tappet engines where wear may be more of a concern, we offer a number of oil products which are higher in phosphorus than API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils. These include Mobil 1 15W-50, Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 (1200 ppm phosphorus), Mobil 1 0W-40 (1,000 ppm) and Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and 10W-40 (1000 ppm). For all newer engines and flat tappet engines in normal service, API SM/ISLAC GF-4 oils are preferred for better fuel economy and for the protection of catalytic systems with lower phosphorous (800 ppm).

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#1010353 - 10/15/07 05:55 AM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: Cary]
mechtech2 Offline


Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 19479
Loc: Chicago Area
That's a lot of real info, and would answer many similar questions in this forum.
So, thanks!

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#1010354 - 10/15/07 06:11 AM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: ezatu]
Big Dave Offline


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 178
Loc: Indiana
I have a 1989 3.2 Carrera. Currently using Brad Penn 20W-50 per suggestion of a few people who know their oil and older air cooled Porsche's.

The current 15W-50 M1 does not have proper levels of ZDDP for our air cooled Porsche's. Let alone the 0W-40, I would not use either.
_________________________
'89 Porsche 3.2 Coupe-Brad Penn 20W-50
'06 VW GTI/DSG-GC
'13 Subaru BRZ-Eneos Sustina 0-20
'05 Honda XR650L-M1 10-40 M/C

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#1010355 - 10/15/07 07:11 AM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: ezatu]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46712
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Quote:

Hoping you oil folks can help. My 1985 911 3.2 litre originally used dino 20W-50 oil. Porsche has approved Mobil 0W-40 for all cars back to late 70's. Now I'm hearing Mobil 1 15w-50 might be the better choice. Also hearing Mobil may not have enough zinc and phosphorous for proper lubrication in my high reving flat six engine. Is zinc and phosphorous that critical? Would synthetic 15w-50 be the preferred choice over 0w-40 - if yes, why would Porsche have recommended 0w-40.




Why not use a high zinc synthetic 20W-50?

Amsoil 20W-50 TRO

http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/techservicesbulletin/TSB_Flat_Tappet.pdf

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#1010356 - 10/16/07 12:43 AM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: Big Dave]
Cary Offline


Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 308
Loc: Northern California
Quote:


The current 15W-50 M1 does not have proper levels of ZDDP for our air cooled Porsche's. Let alone the 0W-40, I would not use either.




According to Mobil the 15w-50 has 1200ppm of phosphorus, the same as the Amsoil high zinc oils.

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#1010357 - 10/16/07 03:44 AM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: Cary]
David_Navone Offline


Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 31
Loc: Stockton, CA
ZDDP (Zinc-Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is a synthesized molecule containing the elements Zinc (Zn), Phosphorus (P) and hydrocarbons. This molecule has the ability to easily dissolve in lubricants and oils and is ideally suited as an anti-wear agent for metal-metal engine surfaces.

It is important to note that the wear protection properties are due only to the characteristics of the ZDDP molecule and not to Zn or P in the oil in other forms or from other sources.

This means that if a particular motor oil mentions the addition of Zn alone, or P alone, the ZDDP molecule is _not_ present in that motor oil. Also, it is possible to measure a level of Zn, and a level of P, in a motor oil and still not have any ZDDP. The ratios of Zn and P can be manipulated by simply adding Zinc salts or phosphates, but again this does not produce ZDDP and has no anti-wearing action. Last, depleted ZDDP releases Zn and P into the motor oil and testing for levels of the pure elements is not a gauge of the status of the ZDDP level.

What does this mean? If you see an oil additive or a motor oil listing only a level of Zn without a level of P, then there is no ZDDP in that product.

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#1010358 - 10/16/07 09:29 AM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: David_Navone]
Cary Offline


Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 308
Loc: Northern California
David, Impressive first post. Do you have a source you can cite for that information? Interestingly Amsoil is listing phosphorus and zing, but not ZDDP.

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#1010359 - 10/16/07 03:30 PM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: Cary]
jorton Offline


Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 2776
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Quote:

David, Impressive first post. Do you have a source you can cite for that information? Interestingly Amsoil is listing phosphorus and zing, but not ZDDP.




What does this mean? If you see an oil additive or a motor oil listing only a level of Zn without a level of P, then there is no ZDDP in that product.
_________________________
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
- Mario Andretti



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#1010360 - 10/16/07 03:30 PM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: David_Navone]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46712
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Quote:

ZDDP (Zinc-Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is a synthesized molecule containing the elements Zinc (Zn), Phosphorus (P) and hydrocarbons. This molecule has the ability to easily dissolve in lubricants and oils and is ideally suited as an anti-wear agent for metal-metal engine surfaces.




True enough. But there are more than a single form of Zn, P oil compound used in lubricants.

Quote:

It is important to note that the wear protection properties are due only to the characteristics of the ZDDP molecule and not to Zn or P in the oil in other forms or from other sources.




Not exactly true. Please cite a source, as requested.
Quote:

This means that if a particular motor oil mentions the addition of Zn alone, or P alone, the ZDDP molecule is _not_ present in that motor oil.




You are: "A physicist by education, David taught physics at the University of the Pacific in Stockton, CA."? Well what you wrote is very faulty reasoning. Any given could oil contain ZDDP and the company could only could mention, write or otherwise only ever publicly talk about Zn (or P).....and this would NOT be proof of no ZDDP.

Quote:

Also, it is possible to measure a level of Zn, and a level of P, in a motor oil and still not have any ZDDP. The ratios of Zn and P can be manipulated by simply adding Zinc salts or phosphates, but again this does not produce ZDDP and has no anti-wearing action.




So you have proof of this? Which oil company? These would be some high wear oils.

Quote:

Last, depleted ZDDP releases Zn and P into the motor oil and testing for levels of the pure elements is not a gauge of the status of the ZDDP level.




True enough to some extent. But would we not see elevated wear metals in such samples.

Quote:

What does this mean? If you see an oil additive or a motor oil listing only a level of Zn without a level of P, then there is no ZDDP in that product.




WHAT a bunch of huey!!!!! Very poor reasoning from an engineer.

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#1010361 - 10/16/07 03:37 PM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: Cary]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46712
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Quote:

David, Impressive first post. Do you have a source you can cite for that information? Interestingly Amsoil is listing phosphorus and zing, but not ZDDP.




This is not true. Read the second sentence:

Quote:

Engine oils contain anti-wear additives and the most com-mon anti-wear chemistry is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZnDDP), which contains a combination of zinc and phosphorus.




Sometimes I just have to laugh! A fellow makes a first post, written in "reasonable scientific language" and it's suddenly the truth. Challenge, people, challenge!

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#1010362 - 10/16/07 08:11 PM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: Pablo]
Cary Offline


Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 308
Loc: Northern California
Quote:

Quote:

David, Impressive first post. Do you have a source you can cite for that information? Interestingly Amsoil is listing phosphorus and zing, but not ZDDP.




Sometimes I just have to laugh! A fellow makes a first post, written in "reasonable scientific language" and it's suddenly the truth. Challenge, people, challenge!




I never passed judgment on the truth of his statements, I asked him to provide a citation for his information.

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#1010363 - 10/16/07 08:19 PM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: Cary]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46712
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Quote:

I never passed judgment on the truth of his statements, I asked him to provide a citation for his information.




Sorry I wasn't talking to you in particular - sorry my reply was to you - it should have been to jorton . More of a general statement, though.

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#1010364 - 10/16/07 08:42 PM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: Pablo]
Lonnie Offline


Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 2304
Loc: Los Angles, CA
I talked with a vintage Porsche racer at the North Island, San Diego meet that races a couple of valuable cars, an RSK and a 911 RS. He said that he switched to Red Line and with a couple of friends had a 55 gallon drum of special 20w-50 mixed up. RLI will also mix up a special batch of oil for you in batches as small as 5 gallons. You can talk to the formulator, Bill and talk over your situation with someone that can give you very specific answers. You can then follow all this up with some help from Dyson Analysis. This kind of approach will get you better information and a better oil in your crankcase. Could be fun, too, at least for a gear-head.

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#1010365 - 10/16/07 09:30 PM Re: Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911 [Re: David_Navone]
Mudcat Offline


Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 91
Loc: Dixie
Quote:

If you see an oil additive or a motor oil listing only a level of Zn without a level of P, then there is no ZDDP in that product.





Non sequitur, Dave.

Your proof is through the absence of information.

By the same logic, McDonald’s doesn’t have ketchup because it’s not on the menu.

Oh, big supersize welcome to the forum too.

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