Changing thermostats is about the only way to lower your temps. It will simply open less if the additive actually dissipates more heat.
Water wetter for summer only driving?
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Water wetter is used for racing engines because most tracks don't want coolant to spill on the track and cause an unsafe tire traction condition.
I think the oils in the Prestone anti-rust would cancel out the effects of water wetter. Oils have less specific heat than water, I dont know if the small amount of oil in the antirust would make a difference.
basically water wetter is like soap, with corrosion inhibitors. It reduces the surface tension of water.
The MSDS says:
Dilsopropyl Alcohol
Tri Isopropyl Alcohol
Sodium Moltbdate
Tolytriazol
PolySiloxane Polymer
the Sodium Moltbdate and Tolytriazol seem to be corrosion inhibitors. I dont know what the PolySiloxane is (many silicone and oxygen bonds??) The 2 Alcohols may be the anti wetting agents. Probably one has longer chains to bond with the oils and the other has shorter chains to bond with the water.
I think the oils in the Prestone anti-rust would cancel out the effects of water wetter. Oils have less specific heat than water, I dont know if the small amount of oil in the antirust would make a difference.
basically water wetter is like soap, with corrosion inhibitors. It reduces the surface tension of water.
The MSDS says:
Dilsopropyl Alcohol
Tri Isopropyl Alcohol
Sodium Moltbdate
Tolytriazol
PolySiloxane Polymer
the Sodium Moltbdate and Tolytriazol seem to be corrosion inhibitors. I dont know what the PolySiloxane is (many silicone and oxygen bonds??) The 2 Alcohols may be the anti wetting agents. Probably one has longer chains to bond with the oils and the other has shorter chains to bond with the water.
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
Changing thermostats is about the only way to lower your temps. It will simply open less if the additive actually dissipates more heat.
Wouldn't that make the engine less efficient?
Changing thermostats is about the only way to lower your temps. It will simply open less if the additive actually dissipates more heat.
Wouldn't that make the engine less efficient?
I have done some computer programs in the past and it turns out that whether you use water only or some percentage of antifreeze it doesn't effect the steady state engine temps. Basically a higher heat capacity coolant like water. Picks up more heat but it is slower to give it up in the radiator. The only thing that changes is the amount of time it takes to get to "steady state". And that is pretty insignificant.
The only thing that matters is the size of the radiator. That will ultimately reject more heat. Coolant flow doesn't matter much either. Again it affects the time to steady state.
I really don't know if water wetter will pick up more heat. If it works it could improve the situation. But antifreeze/water ratios don't matter.
The only thing that matters is the size of the radiator. That will ultimately reject more heat. Coolant flow doesn't matter much either. Again it affects the time to steady state.
I really don't know if water wetter will pick up more heat. If it works it could improve the situation. But antifreeze/water ratios don't matter.
I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what's going on here.
Water has higher specific heat capacity than water+coolant. This means that its temperature will rise less when it absorbs a given amount of heat energy. It will also fall less when it releases a given amount of heat energy. It does NOT have any effect on how quickly it will remove heat. The surfactant properties of WaterWetter and its kind can increase thermal transfer rates by increasing contact area (in theory).
In general steady-state driving conditions, your engine will be at the thermostat controlled temperature. When you're driving on the highway the available airflow, your cooling system and its coolant is more than adequate to remove all heat generated by the engine. The means the thermostat is actually regulating your engine temperature, as it should, and it is not limited by your choice of coolant or size of radiator. You should NOT be attempting to lower this thermostat temperature. Modern engines need to achieve a proper operating temperature to run a proper mixture settings (otherwise they will be running "warm up" rich settings), lower emissions, maximize fuel economy, and prevent excess fuel (from the rich mixture) from washing down cylinder walls into the oil.
In more extreme conditions (stop and go, idling, extremely hot weather, racing, long grades, towing) the system may rise above thermostat temperature because it now actually needs to do some work to control temperatures. These, and only these, temperatures will be lowered by changes to coolant or system sizing. Even then, they should never go lower than your thermostat control temperature otherwise it will close. If your system is unable to keep the engine from overheating in these conditions, choosing a cooler thermostat won't help you. An 85C thermostat will be just as open as a 93C thermostat as your temperatures climb.
So, in conditions where the system temperature begins to exceed the thermostat temperature you will now see differences. Plain water will rise in temperature more slowly and will be able to carry more heat to the radiator. If the radiator is properly sized it will still be able to remove this extra heat. Identically, plain water entering the block at 50C has more cooling capacity to the engine than 50/50 entering the block at 50C. This is the case where these two coolant mixtures may exit the block at 95C and 105C respectively. This is where the notion of "lower temperatures" arises. If the radiator can cool both compositions to 50C before re-entering the block you get "better" cooling and more headroom before overheating from pure water which exits at 95C.
Overheating and boiling over are different things. Antifreeze does raise the boiling point, which will cause less micro-boiling inside the block at hot spots which reduces heat transfer and compounds the problem. In general most cooling systems have pressure caps and the additional pressure allows coolant (even pure water) to remain liquid above 100C throughout the system. BMWs since Sept/98 run at a normal operating temperature of 108C and have 2bar caps. 108C would be overheating to some engines, but not these. Off the top of my head, I don't know if 2bar is enough to keep pure water (or water+waterwetter) from boiling.
Water has higher specific heat capacity than water+coolant. This means that its temperature will rise less when it absorbs a given amount of heat energy. It will also fall less when it releases a given amount of heat energy. It does NOT have any effect on how quickly it will remove heat. The surfactant properties of WaterWetter and its kind can increase thermal transfer rates by increasing contact area (in theory).
In general steady-state driving conditions, your engine will be at the thermostat controlled temperature. When you're driving on the highway the available airflow, your cooling system and its coolant is more than adequate to remove all heat generated by the engine. The means the thermostat is actually regulating your engine temperature, as it should, and it is not limited by your choice of coolant or size of radiator. You should NOT be attempting to lower this thermostat temperature. Modern engines need to achieve a proper operating temperature to run a proper mixture settings (otherwise they will be running "warm up" rich settings), lower emissions, maximize fuel economy, and prevent excess fuel (from the rich mixture) from washing down cylinder walls into the oil.
In more extreme conditions (stop and go, idling, extremely hot weather, racing, long grades, towing) the system may rise above thermostat temperature because it now actually needs to do some work to control temperatures. These, and only these, temperatures will be lowered by changes to coolant or system sizing. Even then, they should never go lower than your thermostat control temperature otherwise it will close. If your system is unable to keep the engine from overheating in these conditions, choosing a cooler thermostat won't help you. An 85C thermostat will be just as open as a 93C thermostat as your temperatures climb.
So, in conditions where the system temperature begins to exceed the thermostat temperature you will now see differences. Plain water will rise in temperature more slowly and will be able to carry more heat to the radiator. If the radiator is properly sized it will still be able to remove this extra heat. Identically, plain water entering the block at 50C has more cooling capacity to the engine than 50/50 entering the block at 50C. This is the case where these two coolant mixtures may exit the block at 95C and 105C respectively. This is where the notion of "lower temperatures" arises. If the radiator can cool both compositions to 50C before re-entering the block you get "better" cooling and more headroom before overheating from pure water which exits at 95C.
Overheating and boiling over are different things. Antifreeze does raise the boiling point, which will cause less micro-boiling inside the block at hot spots which reduces heat transfer and compounds the problem. In general most cooling systems have pressure caps and the additional pressure allows coolant (even pure water) to remain liquid above 100C throughout the system. BMWs since Sept/98 run at a normal operating temperature of 108C and have 2bar caps. 108C would be overheating to some engines, but not these. Off the top of my head, I don't know if 2bar is enough to keep pure water (or water+waterwetter) from boiling.
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Kestas
Staff member
I know that 2 bar is not enough to keep water from boiling. If I had the time, I'd post pictures of what can happen to a system that runs pure water. Ford paid me good money to study some aluminum engine parts from Texas, where the owners of new trucks changed the coolant to pure water - undoubtedly to increase thermal performance of the system. In short time (
Antifreeze mixed with water raises the boiling point and reduces the incidence of nucleant boiling. I see too many people playing engineer and they don't know what they're doing. If the engineers thought that pure water (with corrosion inhibitors) would be best for use in very hot climates, they would say so in the owners manual... but they don't.
Antifreeze mixed with water raises the boiling point and reduces the incidence of nucleant boiling. I see too many people playing engineer and they don't know what they're doing. If the engineers thought that pure water (with corrosion inhibitors) would be best for use in very hot climates, they would say so in the owners manual... but they don't.
For the record, I'm not promoting the use of pure water. It's too late to edit my post - I meant to say that I don't know if 2bar alone will keep 108C straight water liquid.
I found a chart that indicates that 33% glycol will raise the boiling point 4C at 1 bar. 50% raises the boiling point 8C at 1 bar. So without a pressure cap, 108C engines require at least 50/50 to be liquid throughout the system (excluding nulceant boiling which you mention). I don't know what temperature the engines I'm referring to consider to be overheating, probably something like 115C. So 2bar + 50/50 must be sufficient for at least another 7C through 115C. I need to find more reference info.
I found a chart that indicates that 33% glycol will raise the boiling point 4C at 1 bar. 50% raises the boiling point 8C at 1 bar. So without a pressure cap, 108C engines require at least 50/50 to be liquid throughout the system (excluding nulceant boiling which you mention). I don't know what temperature the engines I'm referring to consider to be overheating, probably something like 115C. So 2bar + 50/50 must be sufficient for at least another 7C through 115C. I need to find more reference info.
Some of you are WAY overthinking this, and some just need to take a chill pill. First of all I'm talking about a Jeep with an iron engine designed in the 60s. (4.0L inline 6) The Cherokee body it rides in was originally designed for either a 2.5L 4 cylinder or a 2.8L V6, and the radiator frontal area was designed for these engines.
Later on, AMC shoved the big old inline 6 in there with the same radiator. Thus, the reason Jeep Cherokees are notorious for overheating, even with a good cooling system. In addition to that, my Jeep has never run at stat temperature unless it's still warming up, not even in the middle of winter on an open highway.
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
In more extreme conditions (stop and go, idling, extremely hot weather, racing, long grades, towing) the system may rise above thermostat temperature because it now actually needs to do some work to control temperatures. These, and only these, temperatures will be lowered by changes to coolant or system sizing. Even then, they should never go lower than your thermostat control temperature otherwise it will close.
This is exactly the problem. The last few days I have been driving with only water in my system as part of the radiator flush. The engine has never run cooler. My stat is 195 degrees and the engine normally runs at 210, both below the boiling point of plain water. Now, add a 16lb pressure cap, 25% antifreeze, and a bottle of water wetter and it's NOT going to boil.
As for corrosion protection, again 25% antifreeze + water wetter should completely eliminate that concern. On top of that, converted car engines in boats seem to run on pure lake water just fine. And again, this is an old iron jeep. Not some fancy new aluminum thing with strange coolant.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
If the engineers thought that pure water (with corrosion inhibitors) would be best for use in very hot climates, they would say so in the owners manual... but they don't.
Since when do engineers write owners manuals? The manuals are written by accountants and lawyers with the EPA breathing down their back - the useful life of your vehicle isn't one of their concerns. If everybody followed the owners manual then this board would be completely pointless, wouldn't it? Owners manuals also tell you never to use fuel or oil additives, and often give ridiculously long OCIs or bad advice on oil weight.
Later on, AMC shoved the big old inline 6 in there with the same radiator. Thus, the reason Jeep Cherokees are notorious for overheating, even with a good cooling system. In addition to that, my Jeep has never run at stat temperature unless it's still warming up, not even in the middle of winter on an open highway.
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
In more extreme conditions (stop and go, idling, extremely hot weather, racing, long grades, towing) the system may rise above thermostat temperature because it now actually needs to do some work to control temperatures. These, and only these, temperatures will be lowered by changes to coolant or system sizing. Even then, they should never go lower than your thermostat control temperature otherwise it will close.
This is exactly the problem. The last few days I have been driving with only water in my system as part of the radiator flush. The engine has never run cooler. My stat is 195 degrees and the engine normally runs at 210, both below the boiling point of plain water. Now, add a 16lb pressure cap, 25% antifreeze, and a bottle of water wetter and it's NOT going to boil.
As for corrosion protection, again 25% antifreeze + water wetter should completely eliminate that concern. On top of that, converted car engines in boats seem to run on pure lake water just fine. And again, this is an old iron jeep. Not some fancy new aluminum thing with strange coolant.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
If the engineers thought that pure water (with corrosion inhibitors) would be best for use in very hot climates, they would say so in the owners manual... but they don't.
Since when do engineers write owners manuals? The manuals are written by accountants and lawyers with the EPA breathing down their back - the useful life of your vehicle isn't one of their concerns. If everybody followed the owners manual then this board would be completely pointless, wouldn't it? Owners manuals also tell you never to use fuel or oil additives, and often give ridiculously long OCIs or bad advice on oil weight.
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Water Wetter also helps to lubricate the water pump. I`ve always had it in my car.
Originally Posted By: SecondMonkey
Some of you are WAY overthinking this, and some just need to take a chill pill. The engine has never run cooler.
Well the reason you are running cooler is probably bc of the water wetter.
And Kestas did make a good point with the Nucleate boiling that is a huge issue.
To summarize ..pure water will not cool any better than antifreeze or any combination of antifreeze/water... except in the very beginning, before the thing reaches steady state. Obviously the water wetter is allowing better surface pickup and rejection of heat.
Some of you are WAY overthinking this, and some just need to take a chill pill. The engine has never run cooler.
Well the reason you are running cooler is probably bc of the water wetter.
And Kestas did make a good point with the Nucleate boiling that is a huge issue.
To summarize ..pure water will not cool any better than antifreeze or any combination of antifreeze/water... except in the very beginning, before the thing reaches steady state. Obviously the water wetter is allowing better surface pickup and rejection of heat.
Nucleate boiling is much preferred to film boiling - if there is going to be boiling at all(which there shouldn't be). You seem to be describing film boiling. By definition, nucleate boiling means that liquid is returned to the surface as soon as the bubble forms and leaves the surface.
Where they seeing cavitation damage in these Fords ?
Where they seeing cavitation damage in these Fords ?
Originally Posted By: va3ux
Nucleate boiling is much preferred to film boiling -
Very True I would suspect you want neither.
Nucleate boiling is much preferred to film boiling -
Very True I would suspect you want neither.
One friend never got around to adding antifreeze to his built Camaro, and the block cracked when the temps finally hit freezing. Other friends never seemed to get around to changing their coolant, and they finally ended had to get rid of their cars after the freeze plugs corroded in the block and it started leaking coolant. The ex had a Vette that would boil over as she just added water, and when I finally added coolant it quit boiling over.
Follow the directions in the little book in the glove compartment and things will be just fine.
Follow the directions in the little book in the glove compartment and things will be just fine.
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