"Mobil 1 oil, Rusty Wallace" This is all about the really thin oils used in race cars these days.
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2313.shtml
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2313.shtml
Thin oils used in race cars these days
- Thread starter TallPaul
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No offense to Pat Goss but since 1999 I have been telling folks on Noria and BITOG vis is really overrated when taken in the big picture of race and regular automotive engines.
Pat was so blown away by the "thin " vis discussion that we forget that "synthetic was another revelation in race cars to him.
Rusty is both a sharp technician and a good shrill for M1.
NEO, Synergyn blazed the trail that M1 now takes credit for.
Marketing guys...... its all marketing.
Pat was so blown away by the "thin " vis discussion that we forget that "synthetic was another revelation in race cars to him.
Rusty is both a sharp technician and a good shrill for M1.
NEO, Synergyn blazed the trail that M1 now takes credit for.
Marketing guys...... its all marketing.
I wonder how the light visc. oil do when an engine operated at low rpms. Also the life of the engine is to be considered, how often is the engine torn down and refreshed or replaced? .The parts used are of the highest quality . Are the bearings lined with a layer of teflon or some other type of coating? But then if the oil is thick enough to keep the bearings apart then the viscosity is enough. The jury is still out imo time will tell on 20 wt.I used M1 oil years ago when it was 5W/20 in my ford 300 ci 6 and there were no problems. I dunno!
[ January 06, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Steve S ]
[ January 06, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Steve S ]
Terry good points. Not doubting you (hey I'm running 10w30 in my bimmer) but there has to be some difference between the race engines and consumer engines. Or the wear difference is not signficant to racers. Something is not kosher because I start to believe thin is ok but then I see this:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000045
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000036
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000045
and this:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000036
Or just simply these studies are obsolete?
One thing to consider: the thinner the oil film, the smaller a dirt particle that is going to matter. May need a tighter oil filter media.
I haven't studied the tests referred to above to have an opinion on them, yet.
Don Terrill, who runs Speedtalk.com and interviewed me for the BITOG interview last year was a NASCAR qualifying engine builder and he could answer the questions you guys have about real world building techniques and thin weight oils. Whether he would guest post here is unknown. I will ask and add my background to his comments as I can.
I am actively involved in work for people who do not want me discussing some of the more cutting edge work in that area.
This site is well read of recent by more than a few of the competitors who have the time.
Nascar or other engine builders who are lurking feel free to add to the discussion, we won't pump you for proprietary info !
Terry
Don Terrill, who runs Speedtalk.com and interviewed me for the BITOG interview last year was a NASCAR qualifying engine builder and he could answer the questions you guys have about real world building techniques and thin weight oils. Whether he would guest post here is unknown. I will ask and add my background to his comments as I can.
I am actively involved in work for people who do not want me discussing some of the more cutting edge work in that area.
This site is well read of recent by more than a few of the competitors who have the time.
Nascar or other engine builders who are lurking feel free to add to the discussion, we won't pump you for proprietary info !
Terry
Patman
Staff member
I approved his registration about 45min ago. I was still stuck in traffic on my route home when you posted this.
Hi folks, thanks for the invite.
What I'm going to say is my opinion/experience - you guys are the oil gurus. In fact, if I need oil advice I come here.
I think there is a perfect weight oil for every combination, depending on the bearing clearance and temp the oil runs at. You can definitely go to thin, I've seen it on the dyno - you pull and pull the engine to get the oil temp up and at some point the power starts to fall off. Let the oil temp come down and the power is back. Engine was heat soaked, so it wasn't a water temp difference. We tested some stuff that was like WD40 - not good. If you want to run thin oil, you'd better tighten your rod and main clearance. Which is better, thin oil & tight clearance or thick oil and loose clearance? Not a clue.
In the end the dyno is the only way to know.
Thanks,
Don Terrill
www.speedtalk.com
Hey Terry, thanks again for being on the show!
What I'm going to say is my opinion/experience - you guys are the oil gurus. In fact, if I need oil advice I come here.
I think there is a perfect weight oil for every combination, depending on the bearing clearance and temp the oil runs at. You can definitely go to thin, I've seen it on the dyno - you pull and pull the engine to get the oil temp up and at some point the power starts to fall off. Let the oil temp come down and the power is back. Engine was heat soaked, so it wasn't a water temp difference. We tested some stuff that was like WD40 - not good. If you want to run thin oil, you'd better tighten your rod and main clearance. Which is better, thin oil & tight clearance or thick oil and loose clearance? Not a clue.
In the end the dyno is the only way to know.
Thanks,
Don Terrill
www.speedtalk.com
Hey Terry, thanks again for being on the show!
Don,
Thanks for stopping in and don't be a stranger. Also if you didn't mind, would you cut and past a link to our forums on your site. Welcome from all of us.
Thanks for stopping in and don't be a stranger. Also if you didn't mind, would you cut and past a link to our forums on your site. Welcome from all of us.
Patman
Staff member
Yes! This is exactly what I've been saying all along too! There is no one size fits all when it comes to viscosity, and just throwing a thick oil into every single engine does not ensure that it's going to be the best thing for it.
Don, Thanks for posting ! I really don't like talking as much as you got me to do on the program last year!!!!
BITOG guys, I'm not a engine builder but I work with a few and this is a great opportunity to pick Dons brain. Do check out his site and let BITOG's voice be heard.
This is your chance to ask specific questions and if he can I'm sure Don will tell you more detail on building a NASCAR qualifying engine. Even though that is a thing of the recent past, remember He is also heavily into Drag racing engines now.
On the subject of clearances and suitable oils, let me say that depending on the builders wishes formulating a oil that is both low vis and tough as nails is possible while dissipating heat more effectively than a traditional lube.IMHO, In a race car the lubricant is more of a coolant than a lubricant for theoretical thought process's.
Once again think about what the bearing or ring or journal is seeing vis/temp/Cf wise. There really is a optimum lube for various apps, just takes time and money finding it.
CORRELATION of periodic oil analysis with dyno pulls is a relatively low cost way to confirm what the theory of engine building and oil formulation/application can give us.
Don, you might mention more specifically some of the weights of oils and who built them for your time in NASCAR. I know Synergyn was one that can be mentioned.
Did you work with Ford or GM mostly ? Can you tell us what team or teams used your engines ?
Thanks again for visiting and please contribute as you can !
Terry
BITOG guys, I'm not a engine builder but I work with a few and this is a great opportunity to pick Dons brain. Do check out his site and let BITOG's voice be heard.
This is your chance to ask specific questions and if he can I'm sure Don will tell you more detail on building a NASCAR qualifying engine. Even though that is a thing of the recent past, remember He is also heavily into Drag racing engines now.
On the subject of clearances and suitable oils, let me say that depending on the builders wishes formulating a oil that is both low vis and tough as nails is possible while dissipating heat more effectively than a traditional lube.IMHO, In a race car the lubricant is more of a coolant than a lubricant for theoretical thought process's.
Once again think about what the bearing or ring or journal is seeing vis/temp/Cf wise. There really is a optimum lube for various apps, just takes time and money finding it.
CORRELATION of periodic oil analysis with dyno pulls is a relatively low cost way to confirm what the theory of engine building and oil formulation/application can give us.
Don, you might mention more specifically some of the weights of oils and who built them for your time in NASCAR. I know Synergyn was one that can be mentioned.
Did you work with Ford or GM mostly ? Can you tell us what team or teams used your engines ?
Thanks again for visiting and please contribute as you can !
Terry
MolaKule
Staff member
GM authored a paper (will see if I can find it) regarding minimum viscosities and HTHS.
Basically, they said that for modern "daily driver" engines, a minimum viscosity of 4.5 cSt and an HTHS of 2.6 cP at operating temperature, was necessary to prevent undue wear, and to keep a minimum hydrodynamic film available.
MY findings indicate that a SAE 5 weight to 40 weight will suffice for most modern engines. Fifty weights cross the threshold of reasonableness.
Racing engine oil viscosity is highly dependent on clearances, type of fuel used, and maximum expected operating temperatures. The maximum operating temperature, coupled with the viscosity index of the oil, pretty much determines the weight (viscosity) of the oil that will be used.
Basically, they said that for modern "daily driver" engines, a minimum viscosity of 4.5 cSt and an HTHS of 2.6 cP at operating temperature, was necessary to prevent undue wear, and to keep a minimum hydrodynamic film available.
MY findings indicate that a SAE 5 weight to 40 weight will suffice for most modern engines. Fifty weights cross the threshold of reasonableness.
Racing engine oil viscosity is highly dependent on clearances, type of fuel used, and maximum expected operating temperatures. The maximum operating temperature, coupled with the viscosity index of the oil, pretty much determines the weight (viscosity) of the oil that will be used.
Interesting discussion regarding the thin 'oils'.
Over a decade ago when I was racing Formula Ford, at the urging of the Neo Importer we tried their 10W-30 and 0W-5 oils against our standard dino oils, BP Corse 30 and Castrol GP50. Apparently the 0W-5 Neo had been all the rage in England for the previous few seasons.
Blair had been supplying Neo's lubes to some of Australia's top race teams, but had absolutely no feedback. He said he'd give me the oils if I'd let him be at the dyno runs. I said OK.
Up to that point I'd used Agip Sint 2000 because they gave it to me ! (very scientific !)
We trialled the Neo oils on the dyno and where immediately impressed, not just by the raw HP figures, but how the torque was better all through the range. We picked up 3.5-4 HP and lbs/ft with the 0W-5 over what we'd been running, but it was like water to pour in! (I forgot to mention that these engines only just make 110-112HP, depending on whose dyno you use)
At the first tear down (approx 1000km, mainly to check the crank) I noticed strange pitting on the big end and main shells. (oil pressure 30psi @6500RPM)
Some investigating followed, it was oil cavitation as the bearing clearances (2.2 thou) were too great for the viscosity. (This was my very first engine build, let alone race engine) Tightened those up to 1.5 thou, problem solved, but we were then getting bore wear. Our 250 grit (Sunnen 400 stone ??) finish was too coarse with the ACL iron top ring.
Changed to a (just legalised) Speed Pro Moly top ring to go with their second and oil rings, and IIRC went to a 400 grit finish with plateau honing. That seemed to do the trick.
I ran the 0W-5 at about 25-28 psi @6500 RPM and the bearings/lifters/cam/crank were always fine.
At about 25-30*C or above ambient I'd use the 10W-30 just for my own peace of mind.
I still can't believe that most of the pro engine builders were getting their customers/ my competitors to run 20W and 25W-50 oils in 1600cc engines, although I do know that a number of the top teams were running fairly lightweight synthetics.
After I was forced into retirement through a lack of cash-flow, I did some engine and chassis work for an engineer Friend who had a race shop, but as we were supplying customer engines we used either BP Visco 5000 or Castrol Formula R 5W-30.
Anyway, that was my experience with the lightweight stuff, and I also feel that you have to set the engine up in terms of clearances and finishes to make full use of it.
Rick.
[ February 04, 2004, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: tdi-rick ]
Over a decade ago when I was racing Formula Ford, at the urging of the Neo Importer we tried their 10W-30 and 0W-5 oils against our standard dino oils, BP Corse 30 and Castrol GP50. Apparently the 0W-5 Neo had been all the rage in England for the previous few seasons.
Blair had been supplying Neo's lubes to some of Australia's top race teams, but had absolutely no feedback. He said he'd give me the oils if I'd let him be at the dyno runs. I said OK.
Up to that point I'd used Agip Sint 2000 because they gave it to me ! (very scientific !)
We trialled the Neo oils on the dyno and where immediately impressed, not just by the raw HP figures, but how the torque was better all through the range. We picked up 3.5-4 HP and lbs/ft with the 0W-5 over what we'd been running, but it was like water to pour in! (I forgot to mention that these engines only just make 110-112HP, depending on whose dyno you use)
At the first tear down (approx 1000km, mainly to check the crank) I noticed strange pitting on the big end and main shells. (oil pressure 30psi @6500RPM)
Some investigating followed, it was oil cavitation as the bearing clearances (2.2 thou) were too great for the viscosity. (This was my very first engine build, let alone race engine) Tightened those up to 1.5 thou, problem solved, but we were then getting bore wear. Our 250 grit (Sunnen 400 stone ??) finish was too coarse with the ACL iron top ring.
Changed to a (just legalised) Speed Pro Moly top ring to go with their second and oil rings, and IIRC went to a 400 grit finish with plateau honing. That seemed to do the trick.
I ran the 0W-5 at about 25-28 psi @6500 RPM and the bearings/lifters/cam/crank were always fine.
At about 25-30*C or above ambient I'd use the 10W-30 just for my own peace of mind.
I still can't believe that most of the pro engine builders were getting their customers/ my competitors to run 20W and 25W-50 oils in 1600cc engines, although I do know that a number of the top teams were running fairly lightweight synthetics.
After I was forced into retirement through a lack of cash-flow, I did some engine and chassis work for an engineer Friend who had a race shop, but as we were supplying customer engines we used either BP Visco 5000 or Castrol Formula R 5W-30.
Anyway, that was my experience with the lightweight stuff, and I also feel that you have to set the engine up in terms of clearances and finishes to make full use of it.
Rick.
[ February 04, 2004, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: tdi-rick ]
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