Oil to fertilizer to corn to ethanol...bad idea.

[kargo27]

I thought I remembered my college professors saying that producing ethanol for a fuel wasn't really a "green" thing to do.

The reason is that you have to use oil to produce herbicides/pesticides/fertilizers to grow the crops. The resulting effort basically makes you spend a dime to save a nickel.

You're spending more in energy from the petroleum oil than you'll get in return in energy from the ethanol.

Now if you're able to produce crops without any type of hydrocarbon assistance then of course it would be great! Does anyone know if this is being done now?

 

[Shannow]

U.S. (and Oz) use grain to convert to ethanol.

BAD idea, as there is often not even a positive energy balance.

BTW, U.S. agriculture consumes 5 times as many calories in fossil fuels as actually make it to the table...humans didn't get to the top of the food chain on a negative energy balance.

Brazil use between 1 and 2 units of energy to create 10 with their ethanol.

 

[kargo27]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
U.S. (and Oz) use grain to convert to ethanol.

BAD idea, as there is often not even a positive energy balance.

BTW, U.S. agriculture consumes 5 times as many calories in fossil fuels as actually make it to the table...humans didn't get to the top of the food chain on a negative energy balance.

Brazil use between 1 and 2 units of energy to create 10 with their ethanol.


Amazing isn't it? We could learn something from Brazil.

What gets me is that no one seems to be doing the math or if they are, they're not speaking out. Why is every touting ethanol (in the USA at least) when it's a bogus idea? It's hurting the environment and speeding up the use of fossil fuels.

HELLO! The emperor has no clothes!

I just realized that this subject has been hashed out, sorry for the re-post!

KG

 

[Curious Kid]

yeah, business as usual. Everyone want to make big and "do the right thing". If they could only see the bigger picture then...then...well I guess little would be done and things would certainly slow down.

Ah, how depressing!

 

[oilyriser]

Originally Posted By: kargo27

What gets me is that no one seems to be doing the math or if they are, they're not speaking out. Why is every touting ethanol (in the USA at least) when it's a bogus idea? It's hurting the environment and speeding up the use of fossil fuels.


I see no conflict between this, and the goals of the oil barons who run this place.

 

[Shannow]

Nor the lobby groups who create the subsidies for corn based ethanol.

Your biodiesel standards are remarkable in that the only way to consistently meet the standards involve the use of virgin soy oil.

Oz' standards, are almost amazingly equally remarkable in that to meet the standards, you need to use virgin canola oil...to the point that every single grain of canola is now accounted for, and the fuel producers are importing canola.

I think canola into fuel should really revert back to its original name...it's getting such that it is.

 

[Rabbler]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Brazil use between 1 and 2 units of energy to create 10 with their ethanol.


Is that because there fermenting sugar cane instead of corn and grain like N America?

Time to stock up on rum before the big price hike?

 

[Shannow]

Yep, and the baggasse is used to heat the process.

This corn boondoggle is crazy.

 

[Rabbler]

Sounds like The Brazilians are doing something right down there.
I had to Google Bagasse (never heard of it) but sounds like they have been using the waste for fuel for centuries. Pretty smart for the so called 3rd world.
No surprise they're responsible for more than 50% of global ethanol production.
I wonder if using sugar beets would make more sense in N America for ethanol production.
I think the "Corn boondoggle" is more a political decision than environmental.
Are the oil companies getting involved in Corn Farming now? Hmmm...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Rabbler
Are the oil companies getting involved in Corn Farming now? Hmmm...


Not that I'm aware of.

It's lobbyists full stop.

The Canola lobby in Australia get the biodiesel standards magically to specifically require virgin canola to meet them. The U.S. standards need soy bean oil to meet them.

Neither crop produce a decent amount of fuel friendly oil, with other conventional crops producing 5 times the oil per acre, and algae nearly 10 times.

Same with ethanol...U.S. it's the corn people, down here it's wheat.