M+M M10X hybrid rifle

[burbguy82]

@Astro14

I have quite a bit of experience with Kalashnikov rifles, but what you have is not an AK, and and no functioning, or accuracy issues will translate, accept for the barrel (which I will get to in a minute) and have no experience with your rifle make. As a recap:

*you bought the gun, it had function and accuracy issues, and would not group with a LVPO.....which you tallied up to the scope, then you sent the gun back, they replaced the upper and maybe all the parts

*you now take the gun with a different optic new upper and the gun will shoot 3 inch at 25, which is no good. (sucks big time).....


Now, why I brought up the barrel:

762 Soviet bullet diameter is typically 310-311, in soviet or modern Russian made ammo. Most look at the 7.62 part and just assume that the bullet diameter is the same as 308, but it is not. This is one reason why the AK runs so hot.

I have several AKs, all of foreign origin and none of them shot well with American made ammo. Point being, if they (M&M) made the gun to shoot surplus ammo, it will not like any American 762x39. In my experience anyway.

But, 3'' at 25 is horrendous. And extrapolation is proper in this situation, you would have a 12'' group at least at 100, which I would argue is not really even safe to shoot.

One advantage you have is the rail on the top of the receiver. You could eliminate the optic as an issue, if you had a space set of flip up irons. But 2 bad optics in a row?

Sucks to have such an issue. Do you always have such bad luck?

 

[burbguy82]

3-4” @ 100 yards

That is great shooting with an AK, typical good grouping in my experience with or without optics is 2-3 inches, with fliers of course. That is really all you can ask for without some serious modifications.

3-4” @ 100 yards

 

[Astro14]

@Astro14

I have quite a bit of experience with Kalashnikov rifles, but what you have is not an AK, and and no functioning, or accuracy issues will translate, accept for the barrel (which I will get to in a minute) and have no experience with your rifle make. As a recap:

*you bought the gun, it had function and accuracy issues, and would not group with a LVPO.....which you tallied up to the scope, then you sent the gun back, they replaced the upper and maybe all the parts

*you now take the gun with a different optic new upper and the gun will shoot 3 inch at 25, which is no good. (sucks big time).....


Now, why I brought up the barrel:

762 Soviet bullet diameter is typically 310-311, in soviet or modern Russian made ammo. Most look at the 7.62 part and just assume that the bullet diameter is the same as 308, but it is not. This is one reason why the AK runs so hot.

I have several AKs, all of foreign origin and none of them shot well with American made ammo. Point being, if they (M&M) made the gun to shoot surplus ammo, it will not like any American 762x39. In my experience anyway.

But, 3'' at 25 is horrendous. And extrapolation is proper in this situation, you would have a 12'' group at least at 100, which I would argue is not really even safe to shoot.

One advantage you have is the rail on the top of the receiver. You could eliminate the optic as an issue, if you had a space set of flip up irons. But 2 bad optics in a row?

Sucks to have such an issue. Do you always have such bad luck?

Well, I wouldn't say that I always have such bad luck. Often times, I've been quite lucky, but this certainly isn't one of those times. I had some problems with a Dan Wesson 1911 a few years back, and that is totally sorted. It's a sweet shooter now.

The tale of the Dan Wesson Razorback

I just bought this gun from my brother (in itself, another tale of FFL to FFL transfer woes, including a lost Glock, but that’s another thread). Dan Wesson Razorback. An all stainless steel 1911 in 10mm. Beautiful gun. Sweet trigger. My favorite cartridge. A tight fitting slide like a custom...

bobistheoilguy.com

I just cleaned the M10X, carefully. A fair amount of copper in the barrel, which surprised me a bit. I won't get a chance to shoot it anytime soon, but I want to try a couple different brands to see if it likes anything more than the Norma. You make a good point about the bullet/barrel fit. I was thinking along similar lines - not every gun likes every ammo the same. I'm not ready to condemn the gun until I have tried something other than the Norma.

At least I've got the reliability issue fixed. I don't think this is an optic issue, though the previous LPVO croaked.

I will also refit the QD suppressor mount. This one has such a good gas system, so easy to adjust, that it practically calls out for a suppressor.

 

[burbguy82]

Well, I wouldn't say that I always have such bad luck. Often times, I've been quite lucky, but this certainly isn't one of those times. I had some problems with a Dan Wesson 1911 a few years back, and that is totally sorted. It's a sweet shooter now.

The tale of the Dan Wesson Razorback

I just bought this gun from my brother (in itself, another tale of FFL to FFL transfer woes, including a lost Glock, but that’s another thread). Dan Wesson Razorback. An all stainless steel 1911 in 10mm. Beautiful gun. Sweet trigger. My favorite cartridge. A tight fitting slide like a custom...

bobistheoilguy.com

I just cleaned the M10X, carefully. A fair amount of copper in the barrel, which surprised me a bit. I won't get a chance to shoot it anytime soon, but I want to try a couple different brands to see if it likes anything more than the Norma. You make a good point about the bullet/barrel fit. I was thinking along similar lines - not every gun likes every ammo the same. I'm not ready to condemn the gun until I have tried something other than the Norma.

At least I've got the reliability issue fixed. I don't think this is an optic issue, though the previous LPVO croaked.

I will also refit the QD suppressor mount. This one has such a good gas system, so easy to adjust, that it practically calls out for a suppressor.

I noticed the Razor back thread, which is why I assumed jokingly about bad luck. Good luck on this creature.

 

[LDB]

After Colorado's latest anti-gun infringement move I wouldn't have anything to do with a Colorado gun company. They should be upright enough to leave the state and not contribute to or be a part of their anti-gun moves.

 

[Astro14]

I noticed the Razor back thread, which is why I assumed jokingly about bad luck. Good luck on this creature.

Thanks - I haven't posted too many of the successes, so, I suppose it looks like I have a lot of bad luck, but most of my guns run great when I first get them.

Even the Garands. Of course, with them, I have a drawer full of spare parts and tools, so, I can handle the quirks and square them away.

I'm still impressed with the Springfield Echelon. Just great right out of the box. So many things to like about it. I've managed to get my .308 AR squared away as well.

There are only a few of these things that I would count on as a tool/duty/defensive weapon. Those, of course, must be perfect. My Daniel Defense .300 blk. My Glock 20. My S&W 5906. My Sig P365XL. The wife's Beretta 92. Our Glock 19. That Echelon may join this group.

But I am just meticulous (or worse) enough that I want them all to run right, even if they were only ever going to be a range toy or collectible piece.

I share the failures because I think they're more interesting than the successes. Why doesn't it work right? What can I do to fix it? I benefit from the collective expertise of the group, and I get to share what worked for me. The Razorback is an example of a gun need two things fixed - frame/slide fit, and a different magazine. It's my hope that someone with similar issues will benefit from the experience that I had.

 

[Astro14]

After Colorado's latest anti-gun infringement move I wouldn't have anything to do with a Colorado gun company. They should be upright enough to leave the state and not contribute to or be a part of their anti-gun moves.

Yeah, when the state bans your product, maybe it is time to move. MagPul certainly did.

 

[burbguy82]

I've managed to get my .308 AR squared away as well.

what was it?

Those, of course, must be perfect.

agreed

I want them all to run right

you never know which one you might be closer to when you need it.

I am lucky with guns I suppose. I rarely have issues.

 

[Astro14]

what was it?

The AR, a DPMS LR-308, with a 16” barrel, is undergassed for 7.62x51. I’ve run all kinds of ammo. I’ve tried several magazine types and brands. As it has broken in, it’s better on 7.62x51, and will typically run 100 rounds without issue. When it does have an issue, it’s short cycling. This never happens with .308, and to be fair, .308 is stamped on the barrel. I reckon the gas port was sized for the hotter ammo. With a suppressor on it, of course, I can run it all day on anything.

So, I know what the problem is, and I either run .308 in it, or a can, or know that I can run a few full mags of 7.62x51 on a fresh clean/lube.

I have an adjustable gas block waiting to go on it. When I do get around to that, I’ll check the port alignment, and if it was good, go up a size (wire size drill bits, so helpful) and then dial in the gas so that it runs on 7.62x51. This will also let me adjust the gas for a suppressor.

What I like about that rifle, is the 16 inch barrel. It is quick handling, easy to swing around and maneuver, but still gets good velocity, and it’s excellent in terms of accuracy. First time I shot it, iron sights, 25 yards, off hand, there were four bullet holes that were touching each other, and one a half inch away. Today, with an LPVO (Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x) it shoots one ragged hole under the size of a quarter if it’s steadied on a bench (again, same indoor range, 25 yards, same shooter).

Now that I understand what’s going on through the various tests, experimentation, and range days, I know what the solution is, the short term fix is to simply run different ammo.

For the long-term though, I intend to run 7.62x 51, because that’s compatible with my BM 59, with my M1A, and other older rifles. That’s what I’ve stockpiled. So eventually, I will tailor the gun’s operation to the ammo that I have on hand. I have other, more pressing projects than that one.

Right now I tailor the ammo to this rifle. Or throw the suppressor on it. I haven’t permanently mounted a suppressor on it yet, because that defeats some of its advantages in being short and quick handling. If I were to permanently install a suppressor, I would want a titanium one, so at least it’s light.

 

[burbguy82]

The port hole must be small, I assume it is a carbine length gas and 16 inch barrel, so it should be overgassed. I agree with 762 NATO as opposed to 308 for defensive use and ammo streamlining. I argued that with a buddy of mine in his M1A and argued not to shoot 175 grain out of it.......but what do I know.

For flash suppression and blast mitigation indoors, I suggest the "4 piece flash hider". CNC warrior has them, and Carolina Shooter Supply has them, but they are out of stock at the moment for some redesign. less than 100 bucks, no flash, my 16'' works well with it. And not heavy or big as suppressor. I keep one on the two long guns i have in the house.

Good you got it figured out.

 

[wpod]

BM 59s have always fascinated me. It is somewhere In between the Garand and M 14

 

[Astro14]

BM 59s have always fascinated me. It is somewhere In between the Garand and M 14

A BM-59E. The export version made by Beretta. Simpler than the BM-59, which is, itself, a very interesting rifle. The BM-59E is all Garand parts, except the trigger group, which is modified to hold the magazine, and the receiver, which has slight modifications for the same purpose.

The BM-59 magazines are very robust. This rifle shoots great, by the way. I really like it.

I have a full BM-59 parts kit that I got years ago from Sarco. I am going to send off to Shuff’s parkerizing, along with a barrel and receiver (SA 2.4 million) to be modified, reparkerized, and assembled as a rifle. Looking forward to getting that project done.