That's a really good post, dnewton3!
Any HDEO suitable for 5W-20 spec'd engine?
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Think of it this way:
a cheap dino oil will likely last 3k miles, but then give out
a quality dino PCMO oil will likely run at least 5k miles, maybe more
a quality dino HDEO may last 7.5k miles easily, but perhaps more
a quality synthetic would likely last 10k miles, likely more
any oil, combined with bypass filtration, will likely go well past 25k miles
Get the point?
And before someone jumps on him, and I'm sure someone will, dnewton3 is using these mileage values as comparison values - as conservative base points. As you can see from his experiences, he's gone far longer on regular PCMO. As we all know, 3,000 miles might be far too short of an OCI for many vehicles, while some with, say, excessive blowby and a faulty feedback carb (I'm thinking of my F-150 before the rebuild) might do better on OCIs shorter than 3,000 miles.
My take on it is this. If you're switching oils from the manufacturer's recommendations, it's advisable to have a goal (such as extended OCIs or dealing with an issue specific to an engine) in mind. Second guessing the engineers is sometimes successful, but more often than not is unsuccessful.
Think of it this way:
a cheap dino oil will likely last 3k miles, but then give out
a quality dino PCMO oil will likely run at least 5k miles, maybe more
a quality dino HDEO may last 7.5k miles easily, but perhaps more
a quality synthetic would likely last 10k miles, likely more
any oil, combined with bypass filtration, will likely go well past 25k miles
Get the point?
And before someone jumps on him, and I'm sure someone will, dnewton3 is using these mileage values as comparison values - as conservative base points. As you can see from his experiences, he's gone far longer on regular PCMO. As we all know, 3,000 miles might be far too short of an OCI for many vehicles, while some with, say, excessive blowby and a faulty feedback carb (I'm thinking of my F-150 before the rebuild) might do better on OCIs shorter than 3,000 miles.
My take on it is this. If you're switching oils from the manufacturer's recommendations, it's advisable to have a goal (such as extended OCIs or dealing with an issue specific to an engine) in mind. Second guessing the engineers is sometimes successful, but more often than not is unsuccessful.
dnewton3
Staff member
"... And before someone jumps on him, and I'm sure someone will, dnewton3 is using these mileage values as comparison values - as conservative base points."
That is exactly correct, Garak. This was a contrast of the minimum limits most people would go comfortably with each choice.
My point is that lubricant selection should be based upon your expected maintenance plan. Lubricants are designed and manufactured to operate for a pre-determined service factor, and depending upon your opeartional conditions, have a limited life factor.
Any oil can go a short distance, and no oil can go forever. Therefore, it's a matter of matching your lube to your OCI or vice-versa. It is just as foolish to waste money on an over-capable product as it is to risk damage from an under-capable product.
So, coming yet again full circle to the OPs question. Does he really "need" an HDEO for this application? Probaly not; dino PCMOs will easily protect his investment quite well for normal operation and OCIs. If he chooses HDEO, that's OK, but I would suggest longer OCIs, (and UOAs), to make it worth the extra expense. At this point, it becomes a fiscal balancing act for the added cost of the HDEO (and UOA) versus the OCI duration.
I use 10w-30 dino Rotella in my 1966 289 v-8 Mustang. I drive it very infrequently; probably less than 300 miles a year! I only OCI once every 3 to 4 years. Why? Because I'm confident that the added benefits from HDEO (higher TBN and better soot control) compliment the extended time use. Certainly mileage isn't the issue; it's the risk of long term contamination and storage. Also, it's carb'd and not fuel injected. And let's not forget that tolerances were not as tight 40+ years ago. So here, the HDEO makes sense. It's not a matter of wear protection, but contamination control.
But in the OPs situation, for a frequent driver that is fuel injected, using normal OCI durations, PCMO is a fine match, and anything else is a waste, UNLESS the OCI is extended.
MATCH YOUR LUBE TO YOUR EXPECTED OCI DURATION, FOLKS!
That is exactly correct, Garak. This was a contrast of the minimum limits most people would go comfortably with each choice.
My point is that lubricant selection should be based upon your expected maintenance plan. Lubricants are designed and manufactured to operate for a pre-determined service factor, and depending upon your opeartional conditions, have a limited life factor.
Any oil can go a short distance, and no oil can go forever. Therefore, it's a matter of matching your lube to your OCI or vice-versa. It is just as foolish to waste money on an over-capable product as it is to risk damage from an under-capable product.
So, coming yet again full circle to the OPs question. Does he really "need" an HDEO for this application? Probaly not; dino PCMOs will easily protect his investment quite well for normal operation and OCIs. If he chooses HDEO, that's OK, but I would suggest longer OCIs, (and UOAs), to make it worth the extra expense. At this point, it becomes a fiscal balancing act for the added cost of the HDEO (and UOA) versus the OCI duration.
I use 10w-30 dino Rotella in my 1966 289 v-8 Mustang. I drive it very infrequently; probably less than 300 miles a year! I only OCI once every 3 to 4 years. Why? Because I'm confident that the added benefits from HDEO (higher TBN and better soot control) compliment the extended time use. Certainly mileage isn't the issue; it's the risk of long term contamination and storage. Also, it's carb'd and not fuel injected. And let's not forget that tolerances were not as tight 40+ years ago. So here, the HDEO makes sense. It's not a matter of wear protection, but contamination control.
But in the OPs situation, for a frequent driver that is fuel injected, using normal OCI durations, PCMO is a fine match, and anything else is a waste, UNLESS the OCI is extended.
MATCH YOUR LUBE TO YOUR EXPECTED OCI DURATION, FOLKS!
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
But in the OPs situation, for a frequent driver that is fuel injected, using normal OCI durations, PCMO is a fine match, and anything else is a waste, UNLESS the OCI is extended.
MATCH YOUR LUBE TO YOUR EXPECTED OCI DURATION, FOLKS!
Factoring in cost is important in this, too. Sure, if a five gallon pail of Delvac 1300 is $49.95 and the Delo 400 is $48.95, it's not a big deal.
I just bought twenty litres of QS 10w-30 conventional for under $40, which is cheaper than five litres of TDT. So, unless I "need" TDT, or can safely extend the OCI by over four times by using it, what's the point?
Even comparing HDEO conventionals to HDEO synthetics can show a huge difference. Rotella conventional goes for $67.95 for 20 litres at Walmart. Walmart's own HDEO goes for $37.95 for the same size. TDT is around $42 for five litres.
But in the OPs situation, for a frequent driver that is fuel injected, using normal OCI durations, PCMO is a fine match, and anything else is a waste, UNLESS the OCI is extended.
MATCH YOUR LUBE TO YOUR EXPECTED OCI DURATION, FOLKS!
Factoring in cost is important in this, too. Sure, if a five gallon pail of Delvac 1300 is $49.95 and the Delo 400 is $48.95, it's not a big deal.
I just bought twenty litres of QS 10w-30 conventional for under $40, which is cheaper than five litres of TDT. So, unless I "need" TDT, or can safely extend the OCI by over four times by using it, what's the point?
Even comparing HDEO conventionals to HDEO synthetics can show a huge difference. Rotella conventional goes for $67.95 for 20 litres at Walmart. Walmart's own HDEO goes for $37.95 for the same size. TDT is around $42 for five litres.
dnewton3
Staff member
There you go, again ...
Using common sense and fiscal logic to rule (what is obviously supposed to be) an emotional choice. Your AR BITOG OCD-OCI card is hereby revoked. What manner of man uses facts and data to make clear-minded decisions such as these, anyway?
Some people never learn.
Using common sense and fiscal logic to rule (what is obviously supposed to be) an emotional choice. Your AR BITOG OCD-OCI card is hereby revoked. What manner of man uses facts and data to make clear-minded decisions such as these, anyway?
Some people never learn.
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Using common sense and fiscal logic to rule (what is obviously supposed to be) an emotional choice. Your AR BITOG OCD-OCI card is hereby revoked. What manner of man uses facts and data to make clear-minded decisions such as these, anyway?
I was saying to Bill in Utah that I'm inches away from ditching synthetic altogether. The only thing that even keeps me on board right now is the reasonable price on GC and the fact that Walmart is practically giving away Mobil 1. Their five litre jugs of regular Mobil 1 are only a few bucks more than the regular price on the various conventional oils.
The Audi can use HDEO with no problems; it fits within the manufacturer's recommendations. So, if I was being conservative, I could buy 20 litres of Walmart 15w-40 for around $40. That's roughly four oil changes (plus leftover for top up if needed). I have twenty litres of QS 10w-30 for around the same price. I bet I could go 5,000 miles on QS or cheap HDEO without a problem. So, I have four oil changes, giving me 20,000 miles for under $40 (plus filters, under $5 a piece for OEM).
Now, TDT is over $40 for five litres. That's one oil change for the cost of four oil changes of the cheap stuff. Am I going to run TDT for 20,000 miles? Not without UOAs and the added expense.
Using common sense and fiscal logic to rule (what is obviously supposed to be) an emotional choice. Your AR BITOG OCD-OCI card is hereby revoked. What manner of man uses facts and data to make clear-minded decisions such as these, anyway?
I was saying to Bill in Utah that I'm inches away from ditching synthetic altogether. The only thing that even keeps me on board right now is the reasonable price on GC and the fact that Walmart is practically giving away Mobil 1. Their five litre jugs of regular Mobil 1 are only a few bucks more than the regular price on the various conventional oils.
The Audi can use HDEO with no problems; it fits within the manufacturer's recommendations. So, if I was being conservative, I could buy 20 litres of Walmart 15w-40 for around $40. That's roughly four oil changes (plus leftover for top up if needed). I have twenty litres of QS 10w-30 for around the same price. I bet I could go 5,000 miles on QS or cheap HDEO without a problem. So, I have four oil changes, giving me 20,000 miles for under $40 (plus filters, under $5 a piece for OEM).
Now, TDT is over $40 for five litres. That's one oil change for the cost of four oil changes of the cheap stuff. Am I going to run TDT for 20,000 miles? Not without UOAs and the added expense.
The 5w20 spec is probably aimed at fuel economy.
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