2005 Civic Toyota Syn 0W-20 8320 mi.

[oiltard]

Code:




MAKE/MODEL: Honda Civic 1.7L (D17A2)

FUEL TYPE: Unleaded 87 Octane

ADDITIONAL INFO:

OIL TYPE & GRADE: Toyota SN 0W-20

OIL USE INTERVAL: 8,320 miles

Comments:



Thanks for the notes. Most of the wear metals are looking good here, and aluminum actually

improved, but lead increased quite a bit. That shows bearing wear and a jump like this certainly gets our

attention. We're not calling a problem yet, but it's something to watch. Maybe a harmless particle streak is to

blame. Keep an eye on your oil pressure just to be safe. No fuel or coolant showed up and the oil and air

filters kept insolubles and silicon low. The TBN was 2.4 showing plenty of active additive left, but try just

6,000 miles on the next oil to monitor lead.



Sample Date: 09/15/12 Makeup Oil: 0



05 CIVIC

Unit/Loc Avgs. Univ. Avgs.

Mi/Hr on Oil: 8320 6140 4980

Mi/Hr on Unit: 64,525 53,062 46,924

Sample Date: 9/15/12 1/15/12 9/14/11

Makeup oil added: 0 qts. 0 qts. 0 qts.



Aluminum 4 5 7 3 3

Chromium 1 1 1 1 0

Iron 9 10 13 8 8

Copper 7 5 5 4 4

Lead 42! 18 7 5 5

Tin 6 3 2 0 1

Molybdenum 108 129 151 128 84

Nickel 0 0 1 0 0

Manganese 0 1 1 1 0

Silver 0 0 0 0 0

Titanium 1 0 0 0 1

Potassium 0 0 0 0 2

Boron 16 14 10 15 39

Silicon 16 17 19 16 11

Sodium 8 13 10 20 40

Calcium 2585 2517 2524 2442 2180

Magnesium 24 919 1463 1271 90

Phosphorus 820 866 930 847 686

Zinc 906 921 993 863 820

Barium 0 0 0 0 0

Values Should Be

susV@210*F 53.3 46-57 51.8 51.9

cStV@100*C 8.26 6-9.7 7.82 7.84

Flashpoint F 470 >385 395 410

Fuel%
Antifreeze % 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

Water % 0.0
Insols % 0.3
TBN 2.4 >1.0 --- 8.1


Blackstone did the analysis. What's up with the lead? Also, why does the thinnest OTC oil on the market look so thick? The previous 2 samples shown are RP 5W-20 which is a much thicker oil.

Is the iron a problem and is this oil showing oxidative thickening at 8320 miles? I thought this was an easy 10k mile oil in this engine. Very confused. Is there a chance that Blackstone mixed up my sample?

 

[chubbs1]

That looks like the additive pack of the SN formula. You might have a problem. I would cut back even farther maybe 3k then flush and run 6k and sample again.

The Iron does not look out of line. I would tend to think it is a particle streak. Who knows. Just don't get too worried yet.

 

[oiltard]

It is the SN formulation. I'm still curious about the lead and downright confused about the viscosity. I'm sure someone will come along with some brilliant insight soon and put it all in perspective for me...

 

[oggb]

I'd ask them if that was a typo. A lead reading of 4 ppm would've been in line with the other wear metals in this sample.

Considering all of your other wear metals look great I'd guess this was either error on Blackstone's behalf or nothing at all to worry about.

 

[INDYMAC]

Did you use any strong fuel system cleaners on this OCI?

 

[oiltard]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Did you use any strong fuel system cleaners on this OCI?


I did run a bottle of Techron through it not too far back. I'm really interested to hear why you ask that!

So it's either a typo or nothing and I can safely extend the OCI by a small margin? I want to extend using the same oil (different filter going forward - sorry dnewton) and see how far I can take it.

 

[oiltard]

Update and bump: I have sent a request to Blackstone asking them to re-test lead and viscosity. Will post any responses here.

Thanks for those who responded. Can anyone give me a good resource to explain a "particle streak" (I've seen it here, but never really thought about what it meant), and does anyone have any ideas about the viscosity?

 

[CATERHAM]

Not sure why you're fixated on the KV100 values.
The virgin KV100 spec' for the TGMO is 8.52cSt so the oil has exhibited very little viscosity loss in service.

KV100 values of different oil blenders are not comparable as different oil chemistries, VII levels and types affect the value and therefore do not necessarily translate into appropriate differences in actual operational viscosity.

Blackstone made reference to your oil pressure but I'm assuming you do not have an OP gauge equipped car. If you did that would tell you if the TGMO has a different hot operational viscosity to RP.

 

[oiltard]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Not sure why you're fixated on the KV100 values.
The virgin KV100 spec' for the TGMO is 8.52cSt so the oil has exhibited very little viscosity loss in service.

KV100 values of different oil blenders are not comparable as different oil chemistries, VII levels and types affect the value and therefore do not necessarily translate into appropriate differences in actual operational viscosity.

Blackstone made reference to your oil pressure but I'm assuming you do not have an OP gauge equipped car. If you did that would tell you if the TGMO has a different hot operational viscosity to RP.


I guess I was fixated on it because I thought it should be "lighter" than the RP 5W-20. If you don't think the numbers look off, I'm more than happy to stop being concerned over it. Clearly my understanding of oil viscosities leaves some room for improvement.

I do not have an oil pressure gauge. I have an Ultragauge, but that's unfortunately not one of the available outputs. For the record, I monitor MPG, Engine load, fuel spent (how I really track OCI), and water temp.

I am still not sure I understand what a "particle streak" is. Are the bearings in my engine (Honda D17A2) straight lead, or would other metals be elevated if they were actually experiencing an exceptional level of wear?

Sometimes I think I should go back in time, take the blue pill, follow the owners' manual recommendations, and drive the car 200,000 miles without incident. You people have ruined me.

 

[oiltard]

So I've been googling and found a lot of anecdotes where people used Techron in the gasoline and ended up with high lead reported in a UOA.

So I think I understand that the viscosity is good, TBN leaves some room, and the lead is an anomaly, whether or not the fuel system cleaner was the cause.

Does anyone see any reason NOT to run this oil a little longer (with NO Techron, of course)?

 

[INDYMAC]

When did you start using the Techron? Does it correlate to the incresing Pb levels on your UOA's? I ask because I was able to lower Pb levels in two vehicles several years ago by discontinuing Techron use.

 

[oiltard]

Just used it once, 1 bottle made to treat 12 gallons in my 13.9 gallon tank, about a month before the oil change (I fill up once every 7-10 days).

As you can see, this is the first time lead has been outside the single digits since I started doing UOA's. I've used gumout and things in the past. Usually after a tank or two of non-top-tier gas. Maybe I'll discontinue that practice completely and see what happens to the numbers next oil change.

 

[oiltard]

Forgot to update - Blackstone did check the lead and confirmed the number. I'm blaming the Techron.

So I'm planning to run a slightly longer OCI and re-sample. This sample read 2.4 TBN after 8320 miles. The oil has a starting TBN of 6.84 according to the VOA. Is another 2000 miles taking it too far, or will the TBN depletion be slower at this point?

Also, I assume there's some degree of elevated lead in the oil that didn't drain. Should I worry that it will increase wear? Should I run a much shorter interval to get it out before trying to extend things?

I played around too much with air filters trying to get silicon to show up lower. I'm not dissatisfied with this reading, but I'm keeping my grubby fingers out of the air box for a while and hoping this filter's about to start getting really efficient now that it has 12k miles or so on it.

 

[INDYMAC]

Thanks for the update oiltard. I don't think your single use of Techron is the issue here, especially since your flashpoint indicates very little fuel dilution. Particle streak? Maybe. Film strength? Maybe.

Does your engine have a PCV valve? If so, change it. Pretty early for sludging, but it's possible.

Do you have a manual transmission? Do you lug it?

I don't think your Si levels are excessive, compared to universal averages. If you drive in a dusty/dirty environment, I wouldn't let the air filter go to much longer.

You might consider sending your next used sample to a lab that can also do ferrography. That will show larger size metals in the oil than ICP. It can also determine abrassiveness of the metals.

Cut open your oil filter and inspect. Also, check for debris in your oil drain pan.

Good luck!

 

[oiltard]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
Thanks for the update oiltard. I don't think your single use of Techron is the issue here, especially since your flashpoint indicates very little fuel dilution. Particle streak? Maybe. Film strength? Maybe.

Does your engine have a PCV valve? If so, change it. Pretty early for sludging, but it's possible.

Do you have a manual transmission? Do you lug it?

I don't think your Si levels are excessive, compared to universal averages. If you drive in a dusty/dirty environment, I wouldn't let the air filter go to much longer.

You might consider sending your next used sample to a lab that can also do ferrography. That will show larger size metals in the oil than ICP. It can also determine abrassiveness of the metals.

Cut open your oil filter and inspect. Also, check for debris in your oil drain pan.

Good luck!


Thanks for the thoughts. There's absolutely no way there's any sludge in this engine. My oil change history before finding BITOG was PU and RP 5W-20 @ 3k miles. Taking the valve cover off the engine is beyond the scope of my abilities, but the view down the fill hole is perfection. 0 varnish to be found. I'll try to take off and shake the PCV valve next time I'm under the car, but I'd wager it's perfectly operational.

I found several other instances of people reporting high lead after using the Techron-laden fuel system cleaner. I even found second-hand accounts that Terry Dyson said the Techron scavenges lead from the bearings.

I agree that it's odd that it had that much impact with such minimal fuel dilution. I'm guessing that one of the very few times I put the pedal down was while the Techron was circulating.

I agree that the Si isn't excessive, but it's not ideal either. I don't live in a particularly dusty area, and I actually think I have been replacing the air filters too often. No way I'm opening up my air box for at least a couple more OCI's unless major problems present.

Car is an automatic. It's driven gently enough that I get over 40 mpg out of a car rated 30 combined (under current EPA standards). This does mean I try to entice early upshifts/keep it in the highest gear possible, but obviously lugging isn't an option.

Cutting open the filter is not possible at this point because I no longer have it. The magnet on my drain plug barely had a smear of debris on it. That brings up a thought... Is there any iron in drain plug magnets? I did have a goldplug brand magnetic drain plug on there for the first time this OCI.

 

[pbm]

I just ran Techron thru my Ion and my Cruze. I changed the oil on the Ion as soon as the treated tank was empty and I still have the Techron treated gas in the Cruze. I'm thinking that I'll keep additive usage to a minimum in the future....